Apple Mail Stationery

On 4 Aug 2008, 7:58 am, Trevreav wrote:
and the other 5% from various stores I have an account with.

Its a fine line between informing customers with a well drafted newsletter with compelling relevant content, and just simply annoying them.

Doing nothing for many on-line businesses is not a option, as those businesses are populated with ordinary people like you and me trying to make a living with honest products and services. Many real world businesses have a sales department to hassle people for a sale, this gives the rest or the employees their income. Even though those same employees would say “no way” “its a disgrace” if they hassled them for the same.

Plain text or HTML email reminds me of the earlier discussion of printing in black and white or colour. Colour without doubt gets you noticed, but its the content that really makes the difference if you act on the email or simply regard it as spam.

Personally, I do try and take time now and again to look though the spam filter to see if I’ve missed something. In fact some very good key suppliers would have been missed if it was not for them sending me so called Spam email! And strangely enough, those we’re all HTML emails.

I just live and let live. It part of what makes the world go around.

If I were sending a sales email, it would definitely be HTML.


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Do you remember when Desktop Publishing first came out, and people
with absolutely no design training – or even sense – started using
12 fonts in a single sentence, just because they could?

E-mail is designed to be a lightweight protocol, visible on the most
basic or advanced of devices. It is as close to a Rosetta stone as
there is in this modern world. If your message cannot be understood
in 7-bit ASCII text, perhaps you should consider a different medium
with which to deliver it.

Microsoft came up with the MIME extension to e-mail as part of their
“embrace and extend” approach to standards, simply because they had
created Outlook (a proprietary, non-standard in-office communication
system, designed to sell desktop and server licenses of Windows) and
wanted to connect it to the existing (and much wider) world of the
Internet. The gray-beards who guard the Internet said, “fine, your
extension is accepted by the community process, but don’t forget that
every HTML part must have an equal and apposite (no, that’s not a
typo) Text part, otherwise your message is not in compliance.”

Mail (and every other standard e-mail editing application) creates
compliant multipart messages, where an HTML part is balanced by a
matching Text part, and the recipient (who is the person in charge
here – never forget) gets to choose which one to read. The other
part is ignored.

Freeway can easily create the HTML part. But particularly if you have
used a large amount of graphic text – just like the Viagra merchants
of the world – how would it decide what to use there to make the
Text equivalent? And if you have laid out your HTML part in layers
(which the bulk of e-mail applications cannot understand or display)
how would it decide in what order to place the text? Your message
would make as much sense as a bag of shredder fluff.

The way that Mail gets around this is it uses a template to separate
the text of your message from the “pretty bits”. Freeway doesn’t work
that way at all under the hood, so this would be a very rough force-
fit. RapidWeaver, on the other hand, would be a very likely candidate
for further development along this front.

I don’t oppose progress at all. And I have been called crazy before,
and consider it a badge of honor, but please humor me here. My
opinion is founded on decades of real-world experience, and not on
pure whim. Just because you can do something (as in a ransom-note
design) doesn’t mean you necessarily should.

Walter

On Aug 4, 2008, at 3:46 AM, nickcoll wrote:

I would submit that this is prejudice and rather backward - it’s a
bit like saying you prefer it when the newspapers didn’t have any
pictures and no colour and were all one typeface throughout. YOU
may prefer this (and I know that there is a small hardcore of
people who do oppose progress in this area), but the majority of
people have no such prejudice and welcome it.

Do you honestly imagine that in the future all email is going to be
text only? If so, you’re crazy. The percentage of people annoyed by
HTML email is tiny and the vast majority of people either accept or
welcome it. Welcome to the real world…


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On 4 Aug 2008, 2:46 pm, waltd wrote:

Do you remember when Desktop Publishing first came out, and people
with absolutely no design training – or even sense – started using
12 fonts in a single sentence, just because they could?

Yes, but I don’t know what point exactly you’re making here. People eventually learnt how to do DTP properly and design of publications of all types has undoubtedly advanced dramatically since those times largely because of the advent of the technology. The ease of access of DTP was part of the evolution of communications to its current state. Yes, there were people who didn’t make best use of it, but we’re human beings and therefore by definition flawed. But that has never been a reason to stop progress.

E-mail is designed to be a lightweight protocol, visible on the most
basic or advanced of devices. It is as close to a Rosetta stone as
there is in this modern world. If your message cannot be understood
in 7-bit ASCII text, perhaps you should consider a different medium
with which to deliver it.

This argument is nonsensical in my view. Email may have originally been designed to be a lightweight protocol, but there are many many examples of things which were originally simple but have evolved over time to become more sophisticated. Humble beginnings do not mean that development is not a valid route forwards.

The message is clearly in the words, but pictures and other elements of a document have great value too in complementing and enhancing the message. Otherwise we would not have books, newspapers and other documents with anything but text in them. Can you honestly say that all of the illustrations, graphs, pictures and so on in documents are worthless?

Email is communication, just like any other form. Why should it be held back artificially to only consist of text, when all other forms of communication have evolved beyond that point?

Microsoft came up with the MIME extension to e-mail as part of their
“embrace and extend” approach to standards, simply because they had
created Outlook (a proprietary, non-standard in-office communication
system, designed to sell desktop and server licenses of Windows) and
wanted to connect it to the existing (and much wider) world of the
Internet. The gray-beards who guard the Internet said, “fine, your
extension is accepted by the community process, but don’t forget that
every HTML part must have an equal and apposite (no, that’s not a
typo) Text part, otherwise your message is not in compliance.”

Sorry, once again I’m not sure what your point is here. I don’t like Microsoft, either, and abhor their attempts to subsume everything into their own closed world, but I do not believe that MIME was developed by Microsoft and it doesn’t exhibit any aspects of their approach of taking things over for their own purposes.

Furthermore it has always seemed to me that the MIME standard is rather admirable. It is basically a totally open and extensible format built on top of an original simple and hence very limited format which has effectively become the transport layer.

Mail (and every other standard e-mail editing application) creates
compliant multipart messages, where an HTML part is balanced by a
matching Text part, and the recipient (who is the person in charge
here – never forget) gets to choose which one to read. The other
part is ignored.

Freeway can easily create the HTML part. But particularly if you have
used a large amount of graphic text – just like the Viagra merchants
of the world – how would it decide what to use there to make the
Text equivalent?

Freeway doesn’t have any involvement in this process. Freeway would not be creating the email, only the stationery (within the guidelines laid down in the Apple documentation). The handling of the text would obviously be down to Apple Mail.

And if you have laid out your HTML part in layers
(which the bulk of e-mail applications cannot understand or display)
how would it decide in what order to place the text? Your message
would make as much sense as a bag of shredder fluff.

Now this is a valid point - it would obviously only be appropriate to use basic HTML elements, so I can see that this could be a problem. Not insurmountable, but it does complicate the process.

I don’t oppose progress at all. And I have been called crazy before,
and consider it a badge of honor, but please humor me here. My
opinion is founded on decades of real-world experience, and not on
pure whim. Just because you can do something (as in a ransom-note
design) doesn’t mean you necessarily should.

But the internet is a democratic environment and you can’t stop it from evolving the way that people want. Unless you feel that you can do a better job than Canute in that respect.

Your real-world experience is respected, but bear in mind that circumstances change and the world evolves. I do think you should reconsider your position on HTML email. It is here and it’s not going to go away, and it is regularly used for entirely valid and worthwhile purposes. Of course, if you have totally eschewed and exposure to it you might not be aware of how it is being used today. If this is the case then you should consider lifting your head out of the sand and looking around some time!


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Wow, this has gotten out of hand here. We’re now completely avoiding the subject of would Softpress be interested in enabling Freeway, in a future update, to design stationary easily for Apple Mail?

These opinions butt heads, but this little “e-battle” won’t solve anything.

Inevitably it’s up to Softpress and the program direction that they see fit.


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Freeway doesn’t have any involvement in this process. Freeway would not be creating the email, only the stationery (within the guidelines laid down in the Apple documentation). The handling of the text would obviously be down to Apple Mail.

No, Freeway is capable of creating elements within the template that would need to be translated into matching Text elements, and this is non-trivial.

Your real-world experience is respected, but bear in mind that circumstances change and the world evolves. I do think you should reconsider your position on HTML email. It is here and it’s not going to go away, and it is regularly used for entirely valid and worthwhile purposes. Of course, if you have totally eschewed and exposure to it you might not be aware of how it is being used today. If this is the case then you should consider lifting your head out of the sand and looking around some time!

I do pay attention to these changes, and understand what you are hoping will happen one day. But it is my experience, at least at the moment, that while there may be some exceptionally good reasons to use HTML in e-mail, at the moment (statistically) very few people are using it that way.

I have two levels of spam interception running at all times – my ISP filters based on a “graylist” system, and I run SpamAssassin on my desktops. Fully 90% of the spam I get is formatted as HTML.

I realize that there are a lot of bad apples who make it bad for those who want to use this technique for Good, and I can think of several examples where it’s a lot more work to create a text-only representation of your message (a table of items ordered in an on-line store within the body of an e-mail receipt, for example) but these are the extremely skinny tail end of the bell curve, the Everest-size top of which comprises nothing but “Stuff Posing As Meat”.

Most of the time, if you feel you absolutely NEED to use graphics or color or anything else in the body of an e-mail, I would posit that you are probably not thinking hard enough. Here’s an aphorism for you, an old Art Director joke from when I was a wee lad: “If you can’t make it good, make it big. If you can’t make it big, make it red.”

Thanks for the interesting discussion,

Walter


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On 4 Aug 2008, 4:40 pm, Dan J wrote:

Wow, this has gotten out of hand here. We’re now completely avoiding the subject of would Softpress be interested in enabling Freeway, in a future update, to design stationary easily for Apple Mail?

These opinions butt heads, but this little “e-battle” won’t solve anything.

Inevitably it’s up to Softpress and the program direction that they see fit.

I agree. My original question wasn’t “is HTML email a good thing”, but “Is there any chance that we will see a future revision of Freeway make it straightforward to create stationery for Apple Mail?”.

I don’t know why it was hijacked by the reactionaries out there. Their argument doesn’t at the end of the day seem to be against HTML email as such, but against some of the ways in which it is used; although for some reason the two arguments have been inappropriately conflated.

“Don’t blame the messenger” is one aphorism that comes to mind…


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At 08:37 -0400 4/8/08, nickcoll wrote:

On 4 Aug 2008, 12:31 pm, David Ledger wrote:
And many people, me included, still use Eudora mainly because it
doesn’t interpret HTML.
BTW, and I know this is very OT, I was trying over the weekend to
get Eudora going for a friend who wanted to be able to send mail
using an SMTP server that required authentication. Despite searching
through the settings dialog I just couldn’t find a way of doing
this. In particular, there doesn’t seem to be a way of specifying
the username/password combination for a particular server. It all
seemed rather primitive, but then maybe it was my lack of prior
experience with Eudora that was at fault. I was surprised that it
wasn’t more obvious how to do this very basic thing, though.

Like another emailer I had to set up recently, it just takes the
username. It prompts for the password first time you use it.

David


David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
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On 2 Aug 2008, 2:45 pm, waltd wrote:

You’re probably correct that it would be simple enough to do, perhaps there’s an Action developer who would be willing to tackle the formatting and translation issues.

An action would be cool. I came up with a holiday card Mail template last year so I could easily send out personalized messages to friends and family and, while it is possible to go into the Freeway-generated HTML with TextEdit and add the necessary info to get things working as a Mail Template, it became something of a major project.


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At 05:04 -0400 4/8/08, nickcoll wrote:

On 4 Aug 2008, 7:58 am, Trevreav wrote:

Sorry Nickoll, I have to agree with Walt, I don’t think I’ve ever had
an HTML email that has ben useful,

That’s fine, but it doesn’t really matter whether you and the others
who have posted don’t like HTML email. You’re entitled to your view,
but, believe me, the future will not be built around text-only
email. If you don’t like HTML emails then of course you should deal
with them in whatever way you want.

But just try and put yourselves in the shoes of the majority of
average people who use computers. They do not have any reason to
dislike HTML email as you do - to them, HTML emails are better at
communicating complex messages and the ability to incorporate
pictures etc is a good thing. They could not even imagine a reason
to dislike them.

This is one of the problems of which developers need to be very
wary. You are not typical users, and it is vitally important to be
able to put yourself in their shoes. I am afraid that you are not
demonstrating that ability in your prejudice against HTML emails.

I am sure you will all be up in arms about this, but once again,
welcome to the REAL world, a world of customers who you need to want
to buy your products. What’s important is what they think, and how
you can best create products to tap into that.

See the above for an example of a complex message communicated in a
text-only email that can be seen and read in a normal sized window
without scrolling. I’d be interested to know how you would improve
its communication power if you were to write it when all emails use
HTML.

Just don’t agree that clip-art graphics improve communication except
to those who find reading difficult.

David


David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
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On 5 Aug 2008, 7:24 am, David Ledger wrote:

See the above for an example of a complex message communicated in a
text-only email that can be seen and read in a normal sized window
without scrolling. I’d be interested to know how you would improve
its communication power if you were to write it when all emails use
HTML.

But that is not an example of a message which needs anything further. Are you honestly saying that the message you have sent to me is the most sophisticated example of a communication that you can imagine? I am afraid that I am very unimpressed by the paucity of your imagination if that is the case.


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On 5 Aug 2008, 6:22 am, David Ledger wrote:

Like another emailer I had to set up recently, it just takes the
username. It prompts for the password first time you use it.

What a shame that the UI doesn’t give you any clue that this is the case. Also the lack of flexibility of this approach doesn’t permit authentication with an alternative username and password, which would have resolved the particular issue that I was trying to address. Confirmation at least that it would not have been possible, for which thanks.


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On 4 Aug 2008, 2:46 pm, waltd wrote:

Mail (and every other standard e-mail editing application) creates
compliant multipart messages, where an HTML part is balanced by a
matching Text part,

Walter,

From what you been saying, I’ve been digging round into email i’ve been getting, looking in Mail > view > Raw Source, and I see what you mean. On some email there are two distinct parts (two emails, html and plain text), separated by a boundary (see code) Many email newsletters/spam are just HTML code.

I assume this is best to send this type if you plan any kind of newsletter or email campaign to (please note!) subscribed users.

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1209421077==_ma============"

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Walter,

From what you been saying, I’ve been digging round into email i’ve been getting, looking in Mail > view > Raw Source, and I see what you mean. On some email there are two distinct parts (two emails, html and plain text), separated by a boundary (see code) Many email newsletters/spam are just HTML code.

I assume this is best to send this type if you plan any kind of newsletter or email campaign to (please note!) subscribed users.

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1209421077==_ma============"

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Yes, and this is the reason I urge you to look at services like MailChimp or MyEmma. This is their whole life–getting little details like this exactly right. In one case I can recall, they refused to send out a mail program for one of my clients because the list was a little whiffy. They turned down good money because it might have made my client look bad. This is at the heart of what I’ve been explaining here. If you want to send the occasional “decorated” message to your uncles and aunts, that’s one thing. But if you are doing this for a living, you don’t go down this road without a native guide. There is no amount of engineering that Freeway could throw at this problem and keep you from hurting your own or your clients’ reputation.

Walter


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Are you saying there is a risk, say of being blacklisted, even though you’ve got a pucker list of users that have subscribed to a regular newsletter. Just by preparing a badly prepared email/html mail?


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When I worked at [REDACTED], we sent out some emails to our customers, after years of collecting them and not using them until that point. These emails were plain text. You should have seen some of the angry replies we received. We did everything to make sure unsubscribe info was there, the email looked legit, etc., but still, there were some who replied angrily, and others who submitted us to spam databases.

Be VERY careful about broadcasting email. I suspect some of those people forgot they bought something from us or gave us their email.


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On 5 Aug 2008, 4:39 pm, waltd wrote:

Yes, and this is the reason I urge you to look at services like MailChimp or MyEmma. This is their whole life–getting little details like this exactly right. In one case I can recall, they refused to send out a mail program for one of my clients because the list was a little whiffy. They turned down good money because it might have made my client look bad. This is at the heart of what I’ve been explaining here. If you want to send the occasional “decorated” message to your uncles and aunts, that’s one thing. But if you are doing this for a living, you don’t go down this road without a native guide. There is no amount of engineering that Freeway could throw at this problem and keep you from hurting your own or your clients’ reputation.

Walter

Well, Walter, you’ve now succeeded in TOTALLY confusing me. You have previously said that you’re against HTML email basically because it is the format often used for broadcast email, and particularly spam. But now you’re saying that broadcast HTML email is OK, as long as it is done in conjunction with a “native guide”?

You also say that the occasional “decorated” message is OK, which is exactly what Apple Mail’s stationery will be used for. This is in direct contradiction of what you have said before:

Personally, I find HTML mail to be a wasteful and annoying thing,

So in conclusion it sounds like you now accept that HTML email does have a role to perform?


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I am not in favor of it at all, personally. I don’t like it and don’t
want anyone to send it to me. And understanding that bias on my part,
if it comes to a choice between the things that Softpress can spend
their precious development time on, this is right down there with a
module that animates logos and makes them burst into flames and leap
off the screen in 3D if I’m asked to vote on the subject.

Okay, that’s me personally. Now if you look at what I wrote, you’ll
see that I’m referring to those times when your clients ask you to do
things that you wouldn’t do on a bet otherwise. You’ve warned them,
cajoled them, told them they will go to hell for a really long time,
and they still want you to send people HTML mail. You could refuse,
or you could pay the mortgage. And then, yes, if you have help from
someone who spends their every waking hour with this problem before
them, you can use this technique for commercial purposes, but warn
them one more time in writing first.

As to personal, limited use, I wouldn’t send HTML mail to someone I
liked, but Aunt Matilda (TIllie to her bridge club) can have double
portions! Bring on the jumping dog animations! Grrrrrr!

Your mileage may vary, void where prohibited, don’t tell me I didn’t
tell you so.

Walter

On Aug 5, 2008, at 6:02 PM, nickcoll wrote:

So in conclusion it sounds like you now accept that HTML email does
have a role to perform?


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It’s been a while since this was discussed, so I thought I’d bring the topic back to life, to see if there has been any progress.

I understand that many people here don’t like html email. That’s fine. However, so far, in my business, it works, but it work a whole lot better if I could use Apple Mail.app Stationery templates. I’d like to design my own, in particular using the very cool ‘image placeholders’, but I have no knowledge of html coding. I do however use FWPro (which is probably completely to blame for me having no knowledge of html coding).

There is currently absolutely nothing available for making mail stationery easily. I think it would be a very good fit for FW and yes … an action would probably be ideal.

Apple fully document the Stationery format, as previously mentioned in this thread. So it might not be so hard for someone to develop an action.

As for the argument for and against …

My personal take is that this is like the old PC/Mac debate from a long time ago : Why have all those pointless frills, like the Desktop, when you have all you need in the command line? :slight_smile:


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That’s pretty funny, actually.

My personal take on it is like the junk mail that I get every
Wednesday. I actually open all the mail that’s addressed to me, and
the mail that comes from someone I know gets opened first and read.
The junk mail gets thrown out, unread. The “ha, ha, fooled you” junk
mail doctored to look like it’s official or not junk mail gets
returned, taped to a brick.

In my view, the question isn’t between style and substance, it’s
respect for the time of the person you’re sending to.

Walter

On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:25 AM, grantsymon wrote:

My personal take is that this is like the old PC/Mac debate from a
long time ago : Why have all those pointless frills, like the
Desktop, when you have all you need in the command line? :slight_smile:


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