CSS, tables, in-flow, box model

Freeway
1

I did a search in Google for “differences between CSS and tables in Freeway” and got a link to a very interesting freewaytalk thread called “[Pro] Should I give up on CSS and Freeway?” with 24 replies from October, 2009. Much of it was above my head. I did this search in the first place because I’m so new to FW and website creation and I see talk about these topics (and the other things in this message’s subject line) continually.

The penultimate posting in that thread was still in October, 09 but then the last one turned up in May, 2010. That poster said:

“Brian, I’m a very new user who has come across this thread only recently. I am wondering if I should “leave the CSS button on” or not. May I ask you what your thoughts are regarding this topic since these posts from October ‘09? Thanks, Tobor”

Well, the thread was about 6 or 7 months old by then and maybe the folks who contributed to it weren’t following it anymore, for there were no replies to it.

I’ve become committed to working with FW because I agreed to a good friend’s request that I build a site for his new business. Just as an aside as to why he asked me to do this, someone who knows so little about site building – though this is not my first, I’ve done a couple of personal sites in Front Page a long time ago and more recently in iWeb – is because back in 1988 we co-founded an educational software business that turned out to be extremely successful and which we sold in 1995.

I now see that this commitment I made is going to be a full-time (unpaid, but that’s OK) job that’s going to go on for a long time. So I want to become as educated as I can with FW so I can do the best job possible for my friend and former partner.

Having said all that, I’m asking, first, the same question as Tabor, above, and also what is the best way for me to find out everything that I might need to know about all the topics in the subject line of this post. I do read the FW manual (I’m a big RFMer, having been an academic for the first 25 years of my working life), but I don’t find a succinct answer to these questions.

If anyone could give me an idea of what I really need to know and maybe point me in the best direction for learning about it, I’d be greatly appreciative.

Finally, to give you an idea of what the site is about (this very early stage of development can be seen at http://www.blackpatchgrassfedbeef.com): my friend and former partner, Phil, is undertaking a life-long dream of working the family farm where he was raised, a farm that’s been in his family since 1832. He’ll be raising grass-fed beef and other meat products and selling the cuts from them locally, online, beginning in the spring of this year. So in addition to a lot of relatively easy content pages and photos, there will eventually be a store on the site, as well.

Thanks for reading this.

Martin
Signal Mountain, TN

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2

In my experience, the best way to figure out Freeway (or any other app
or working method) is to dive in, try to build something, get stuck,
and ask for help about the particular thing you’re stuck on.

As far as the CSS button goes, here’s the deal:

With it on, the layout will be resolutely WYSIWYG for you and any
normal user. As long as the end user hasn’t jacked around with their
browser (enlarged fonts, primarily) they will see what you design.
Period.

But once they do mess with browser settings, you can bet large money
that they will see the page significantly distorted from what you
designed.

With the CSS button off, you still get a great WYSIWYG experience,
however you won’t be able to overlap HTML items with one another at
all, and you’ll have to put up with scorn and derision from
Standardistas who insist that tables are for tabular data, not layout.
But you will end up with a page that will suffer the slings and arrows
of outrageous browsers very very nicely indeed.

Walter

On Jan 8, 2011, at 9:45 AM, Martin Rice wrote:

Having said all that, I’m asking, first, the same question as Tabor,
above, and also what is the best way for me to find out everything
that I might need to know about all the topics in the subject line
of this post. I do read the FW manual (I’m a big RFMer, having been
an academic for the first 25 years of my working life), but I don’t
find a succinct answer to these questions.

If anyone could give me an idea of what I really need to know and
maybe point me in the best direction for learning about it, I’d be
greatly appreciative.

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3

Thanks for this information, Walter, I appreciate it.

I have been diving in as you suggest and have been asking for LOADS of help here from the list, and, have really got a lot of it from the extremely helpful and generous list members. I guess I’m feeling a bit as though I’m maybe asking too much of them.

Regarding your discussion of CSS on and/or off, what you say is, of course, very interesting to me. The fact is that at this point I’ve built the site thus far with the CSS button on. What happens if I turn it off? Is everything going to fall apart? I do have a couple of overlapping HTML items, for example.

Thanks,
Martin

On Jan 8, 2011, at 10:30 AM, Walter Lee Davis wrote:

In my experience, the best way to figure out Freeway (or any other app or working method) is to dive in, try to build something, get stuck, and ask for help about the particular thing you’re stuck on.

As far as the CSS button goes, here’s the deal:

With it on, the layout will be resolutely WYSIWYG for you and any normal user. As long as the end user hasn’t jacked around with their browser (enlarged fonts, primarily) they will see what you design. Period.

But once they do mess with browser settings, you can bet large money that they will see the page significantly distorted from what you designed.

With the CSS button off, you still get a great WYSIWYG experience, however you won’t be able to overlap HTML items with one another at all, and you’ll have to put up with scorn and derision from Standardistas who insist that tables are for tabular data, not layout. But you will end up with a page that will suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous browsers very very nicely indeed.

Walter

On Jan 8, 2011, at 9:45 AM, Martin Rice wrote:

Having said all that, I’m asking, first, the same question as Tabor, above, and also what is the best way for me to find out everything that I might need to know about all the topics in the subject line of this post. I do read the FW manual (I’m a big RFMer, having been an academic for the first 25 years of my working life), but I don’t find a succinct answer to these questions.

If anyone could give me an idea of what I really need to know and maybe point me in the best direction for learning about it, I’d be greatly appreciative.

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Update your subscriptions at:
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4

Absolutely nothing you’ve already built will change at all. The button
only confers its change on things you create after you change its mode.

So Button ON, draw a box, and it becomes a DIV. Button OFF, the
preceding box is still a DIV but the next box you draw is a TD.

If you want to change an existing box from a DIV to a TD, simply un-
check the Layer checkbox in the Inspector while that box is selected
in the design view.

Walter

On Jan 8, 2011, at 11:51 AM, Martin Rice wrote:

I’ve built the site thus far with the CSS button on. What happens if
I turn it off? Is everything going to fall apart? I do have a couple
of overlapping HTML items, for example.

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5

Thanks, Walter, I’ll give it a try and see what happens.

Martin

On Jan 8, 2011, at 11:58 AM, Walter Lee Davis wrote:

Absolutely nothing you’ve already built will change at all. The button only confers its change on things you create after you change its mode.

So Button ON, draw a box, and it becomes a DIV. Button OFF, the preceding box is still a DIV but the next box you draw is a TD.

If you want to change an existing box from a DIV to a TD, simply un-check the Layer checkbox in the Inspector while that box is selected in the design view.

Walter

On Jan 8, 2011, at 11:51 AM, Martin Rice wrote:

I’ve built the site thus far with the CSS button on. What happens if I turn it off? Is everything going to fall apart? I do have a couple of overlapping HTML items, for example.

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