External CSS and Javascript

Freeway
1

My client has been using an SEO company who have advised me that the
site I’ve done (around 60 pages) would benefit if I used external CSS
and javascript rather than inline.

Where should I start to implement this? Once I know I will do it from
now on, but not 100% sure of the first step. If someone could advise I
would be eternally grateful.

Thanks you.

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

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2

I do wonder whether if there would be much difference. This reply is
one I’ve heard of before by SEO companies.

I don’t think there is a way of external Javascript apart from
manually. (You can do the CSS - I think there is a tutorial mentioned
on the forum somewhere)

David Owen

On 16 Apr 2009, at 13:58, Nathan Garner wrote:

My client has been using an SEO company who have advised me that the
site I’ve done (around 60 pages) would benefit if I used external
CSS and javascript rather than inline.

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3

The javascript generated by actions can’t be moved from within FW. The
only way to do it would be to manually go in and move the code to an
external file but that’s a one-way trip and one that would require
manually coding javascript should you ever need to change that stuff.
Not your best option if you plan to maintain the site yourself with FW.

On the other hand, if you use javascript that’s not action or FW-
generated then there are actions which allow you to attach external js
files very easily. And as David said, the CSS thing is easier to
execute.

Todd

On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:58 AM, Nathan Garner wrote:

My client has been using an SEO company who have advised me that the
site I’ve done (around 60 pages) would benefit if I used external
CSS and javascript rather than inline.

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4

Aha… Thank you for your responses Davd & Todd.

I thought the Javascript would be a problem, although I’m, not using a
lot, so might just ignore that one.

With regard to the stylesheet, as I’m not looking to edit / add
anything outside of FW, am I correct in thinking that if I click the
external stylesheets check box and re-upload, that will solve my
dilema and appease the SEO guy or do I need to go a little deeper?

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

On 16 Apr 2009, at 16:08, Todd wrote:

The javascript generated by actions can’t be moved from within FW.
The only way to do it would be to manually go in and move the code
to an external file but that’s a one-way trip and one that would
require manually coding javascript should you ever need to change
that stuff. Not your best option if you plan to maintain the site
yourself with FW.

On the other hand, if you use javascript that’s not action or FW-
generated then there are actions which allow you to attach external
js files very easily. And as David said, the CSS thing is easier to
execute.

Todd

On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:58 AM, Nathan Garner wrote:

My client has been using an SEO company who have advised me that
the site I’ve done (around 60 pages) would benefit if I used
external CSS and javascript rather than inline.

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5

That will pretty much do the trick. Keep in mind though that any
inline CSS that FW adds will stay where it is unless you use the
Remove Div Style action to remove it. It’s a great action but you need
to pay attention to what you do otherwise there could be conflicts
with naming schemes. With 60 pages you’re looking at a very tedious
process.

Todd

On Apr 16, 2009, at 11:00 AM, Nathan Garner wrote:

With regard to the stylesheet, as I’m not looking to edit / add
anything outside of FW, am I correct in thinking that if I click the
external stylesheets check box and re-upload, that will solve my
dilema and appease the SEO guy or do I need to go a little deeper?

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6

You are somewhat correct. Freeway will still emit a lot of inline
element positioning CSS, but it will move the bulk of text style code
out to the external sheet. Your SEO person is trying to get your
“actual” text closer to the top of the code, and this will accomplish
that goal.

You can go a lot further toward accomplishing that particular goal by
removing any rollover effects, image swaps of any kind, etc. Freeway
adds several screens’ worth of code to make those effects browser-
safe. Google and others don’t appreciate that stuff at all, since they
are blind.

But there is the real trade-off. If you want to make your site Google-
friendly, it does mean (in Freeway, anyway) getting rid of a lot of
people-friendly effects. Rollovers are hugely popular because they
indicate something useful to the human visitor. So you have to choose
who you want to impress here.

Walter

On Apr 16, 2009, at 12:00 PM, Nathan Garner wrote:

am I correct in thinking that if I click the external stylesheets
check box and re-upload, that will solve my dilema and appease the
SEO guy or do I need to go a little deeper?

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7

Brilliant advice as always Walter & Todd… very much appreciated.

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

On 16 Apr 2009, at 17:06, Walter Lee Davis wrote:

You are somewhat correct. Freeway will still emit a lot of inline
element positioning CSS, but it will move the bulk of text style
code out to the external sheet. Your SEO person is trying to get
your “actual” text closer to the top of the code, and this will
accomplish that goal.

You can go a lot further toward accomplishing that particular goal
by removing any rollover effects, image swaps of any kind, etc.
Freeway adds several screens’ worth of code to make those effects
browser-safe. Google and others don’t appreciate that stuff at all,
since they are blind.

But there is the real trade-off. If you want to make your site
Google-friendly, it does mean (in Freeway, anyway) getting rid of a
lot of people-friendly effects. Rollovers are hugely popular because
they indicate something useful to the human visitor. So you have to
choose who you want to impress here.

Walter

On Apr 16, 2009, at 12:00 PM, Nathan Garner wrote:

am I correct in thinking that if I click the external stylesheets
check box and re-upload, that will solve my dilema and appease the
SEO guy or do I need to go a little deeper?

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8

I’ve just uploaded the temp page with the external stylesheets
checked. In the generated css file there’s only around 20-30 lines of
code. And there’s still a lot of code before any of the actual text.

I suspect I’m going to have to tackle this in a different way. Would I
be correct in this thinking?

http://www.awdc-creative.com/clients/newyou/homepage/

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

On 16 Apr 2009, at 17:06, Walter Lee Davis wrote:

You are somewhat correct. Freeway will still emit a lot of inline
element positioning CSS, but it will move the bulk of text style
code out to the external sheet. Your SEO person is trying to get
your “actual” text closer to the top of the code, and this will
accomplish that goal.

You can go a lot further toward accomplishing that particular goal
by removing any rollover effects, image swaps of any kind, etc.
Freeway adds several screens’ worth of code to make those effects
browser-safe. Google and others don’t appreciate that stuff at all,
since they are blind.

But there is the real trade-off. If you want to make your site
Google-friendly, it does mean (in Freeway, anyway) getting rid of a
lot of people-friendly effects. Rollovers are hugely popular because
they indicate something useful to the human visitor. So you have to
choose who you want to impress here.

Walter

On Apr 16, 2009, at 12:00 PM, Nathan Garner wrote:

am I correct in thinking that if I click the external stylesheets
check box and re-upload, that will solve my dilema and appease the
SEO guy or do I need to go a little deeper?

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9

Sometime around 17/4/09 (at 09:53 +0100) Nathan Garner said:

I suspect I’m going to have to tackle this in a different way. Would
I be correct in this thinking?

One thing you should consider seriously is why this matters. I cannot
see a concrete reason why this would make a significant difference to
SEO performance. A little snakeoil selling, perhaps?

k

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10

Hi Nathan,

Because certain things such as link and menu styles (which is what
your stylesheet is made up of) are, or at least can be, page specific.
For this reason they don’t get added to the external stylesheet, if
they did they may conflict with other styles on other pages.

There isn’t really any current (easy) way to get every style and/or
script into an external file.

I hope this helps.

Joe

On 17 Apr 2009, at 09:53, Nathan Garner wrote:

I’ve just uploaded the temp page with the external stylesheets
checked. In the generated css file there’s only around 20-30 lines
of code. And there’s still a lot of code before any of the actual
text.

I suspect I’m going to have to tackle this in a different way. Would
I be correct in this thinking?

http://www.awdc-creative.com/clients/newyou/homepage/

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

On 16 Apr 2009, at 17:06, Walter Lee Davis wrote:

You are somewhat correct. Freeway will still emit a lot of inline
element positioning CSS, but it will move the bulk of text style
code out to the external sheet. Your SEO person is trying to get
your “actual” text closer to the top of the code, and this will
accomplish that goal.

You can go a lot further toward accomplishing that particular goal
by removing any rollover effects, image swaps of any kind, etc.
Freeway adds several screens’ worth of code to make those effects
browser-safe. Google and others don’t appreciate that stuff at all,
since they are blind.

But there is the real trade-off. If you want to make your site
Google-friendly, it does mean (in Freeway, anyway) getting rid of a
lot of people-friendly effects. Rollovers are hugely popular
because they indicate something useful to the human visitor. So you
have to choose who you want to impress here.

Walter

On Apr 16, 2009, at 12:00 PM, Nathan Garner wrote:

am I correct in thinking that if I click the external stylesheets
check box and re-upload, that will solve my dilema and appease the
SEO guy or do I need to go a little deeper?

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11

Hi Joe,

Oh right, is that the way all stylesheets are built, or just the way
FW generates them. If it’s the standard way then I suspect it will be
ok.

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

On 17 Apr 2009, at 10:49, Joe Billings wrote:

Hi Nathan,

Because certain things such as link and menu styles (which is what
your stylesheet is made up of) are, or at least can be, page
specific. For this reason they don’t get added to the external
stylesheet, if they did they may conflict with other styles on other
pages.

There isn’t really any current (easy) way to get every style and/
or script into an external file.

I hope this helps.

Joe

On 17 Apr 2009, at 09:53, Nathan Garner wrote:

I’ve just uploaded the temp page with the external stylesheets
checked. In the generated css file there’s only around 20-30 lines
of code. And there’s still a lot of code before any of the actual
text.

I suspect I’m going to have to tackle this in a different way.
Would I be correct in this thinking?

http://www.awdc-creative.com/clients/newyou/homepage/

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

On 16 Apr 2009, at 17:06, Walter Lee Davis wrote:

You are somewhat correct. Freeway will still emit a lot of inline
element positioning CSS, but it will move the bulk of text style
code out to the external sheet. Your SEO person is trying to get
your “actual” text closer to the top of the code, and this will
accomplish that goal.

You can go a lot further toward accomplishing that particular goal
by removing any rollover effects, image swaps of any kind, etc.
Freeway adds several screens’ worth of code to make those effects
browser-safe. Google and others don’t appreciate that stuff at
all, since they are blind.

But there is the real trade-off. If you want to make your site
Google-friendly, it does mean (in Freeway, anyway) getting rid of
a lot of people-friendly effects. Rollovers are hugely popular
because they indicate something useful to the human visitor. So
you have to choose who you want to impress here.

Walter

On Apr 16, 2009, at 12:00 PM, Nathan Garner wrote:

am I correct in thinking that if I click the external stylesheets
check box and re-upload, that will solve my dilema and appease
the SEO guy or do I need to go a little deeper?

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12

Having been in a very similar situation I do wonder if this
externalising everything make a massive difference. I refused to
remove the javascript on the site I was working because of the
downside to the client in ongoing site management and costs. The SEO
exports just moved on and did more off-site methods which did the
required SEO tricks ( apart from a few suggestions of site text, it
was all about inward links to the site and the end of the day)

David

On 17 Apr 2009, at 10:19, Keith Martin wrote:

Sometime around 17/4/09 (at 09:53 +0100) Nathan Garner said:

I suspect I’m going to have to tackle this in a different way.
Would I be correct in this thinking?

One thing you should consider seriously is why this matters. I
cannot see a concrete reason why this would make a significant
difference to SEO performance. A little snakeoil selling, perhaps?

k

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13

As in… the SEO company had connections with all kinds of directories
and other sites to create inward links (they probably even own and run
these referring sites) :wink:

David

On 17 Apr 2009, at 12:49, David Owen wrote:

it was all about inward links to the site and the end of the day

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14

Sometime around 17/4/09 (at 12:53 +0100) David Owen said:

(they probably even own and run these referring sites) :wink:

Almost certainly. It is a bit of a house of cards and does fly
against what ideal SEO is supposed to be about (namely creating
compelling content that’s tagged logically and clearly), but it can
be effective if handled carefully.

However, my feelings about that claim regarding externalising those
code elements is that it would make excellent fertiliser. As in it is
perhaps 98% a pile of manure.

k

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15

+1 Make that pile a little bigger :slight_smile:

David

On 17 Apr 2009, at 13:34, Keith Martin wrote:

externalising those code elements is that it would make excellent
fertiliser. As in it is perhaps 98% a pile of manure.

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16

This is just how FW does things to keep everything organized, but it’s
not the only way. As Joe said, there’s no easy way to do what you want
because you have to swim against how FW wants to work, but still, it
is possible.

I don’t know if this separation really matters to search engines or
not, I too have my suspicions, but whether it does or doesn’t there
are, depending who you ask, other reasons (some of them geeky) for
wanting to keep things separate but whether they matter to you or you
client is another matter.

Todd

On Apr 17, 2009, at 5:22 AM, Nathan Garner wrote:

Oh right, is that the way all stylesheets are built, or just the way
FW generates them. If it’s the standard way then I suspect it will
be ok.

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17

Sorry to go back to this… so, if I’ve been asked to externalise my
CSS, and all my menus are already using the CSS Menu action, how can
that be done? Does it mean removing that action and coding it
externally?

Think I’m going to be out of my depth with this one, and passing the
whole project over. :frowning:

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

On 17 Apr 2009, at 13:39, David Owen wrote:

+1 Make that pile a little bigger :slight_smile:

David

On 17 Apr 2009, at 13:34, Keith Martin wrote:

externalising those code elements is that it would make excellent
fertiliser. As in it is perhaps 98% a pile of manure.

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18

I sense you are being ‘made’ to jump through hoops that are more about
vanity than sanity.
Having opened to the process, you have wrong footed yourself.

If a client wants something it has benefits and costs.
And I am not merely speaking financially - though that will also follow.

There are sure to be some occasions when there is a real need to externalise
all the CSS - but I bet these are very rare and specialised.

There’s a political correctness mentality - in my opinion - that is obsessed
with ‘right practice’ rather than guided by it.
There is also a ‘SEO voodoo mentality’ - where almost any possible tweak or
practice can be accorded more value than it actually has - an be religiously
adhered to by the sellers of such services to the ignorant.

These are the kind of folks who advised in the 80s that the Mac was a toy: a
mouse, windows, menus and icons! Whatever next!

You can restate what you have to offer with a sense of its value and with
conviction or you can pass the whole project over with a smile because you
are not the kind of service they seek and trying to be so is not your forte.

This is all just my 2c
If it was trivial to sort the code to dress accordingly behind the works
then why not? - but it isnt is it!

all the best
Brian

Nathan Garner said recently:

Sorry to go back to this… so, if I’ve been asked to externalise my
CSS, and all my menus are already using the CSS Menu action, how can
that be done? Does it mean removing that action and coding it
externally?

Think I’m going to be out of my depth with this one, and passing the
whole project over. :frowning:

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

On 17 Apr 2009, at 13:39, David Owen wrote:

+1 Make that pile a little bigger :slight_smile:

David

On 17 Apr 2009, at 13:34, Keith Martin wrote:

externalising those code elements is that it would make excellent
fertiliser. As in it is perhaps 98% a pile of manure.

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19

Excellent reply Brian! Thank you!

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

On 20 Apr 2009, at 12:19, Brian Steere wrote:

I sense you are being ‘made’ to jump through hoops that are more about
vanity than sanity.
Having opened to the process, you have wrong footed yourself.

If a client wants something it has benefits and costs.
And I am not merely speaking financially - though that will also
follow.

There are sure to be some occasions when there is a real need to
externalise
all the CSS - but I bet these are very rare and specialised.

There’s a political correctness mentality - in my opinion - that is
obsessed
with ‘right practice’ rather than guided by it.
There is also a ‘SEO voodoo mentality’ - where almost any possible
tweak or
practice can be accorded more value than it actually has - an be
religiously
adhered to by the sellers of such services to the ignorant.

These are the kind of folks who advised in the 80s that the Mac was
a toy: a
mouse, windows, menus and icons! Whatever next!

You can restate what you have to offer with a sense of its value and
with
conviction or you can pass the whole project over with a smile
because you
are not the kind of service they seek and trying to be so is not
your forte.

This is all just my 2c
If it was trivial to sort the code to dress accordingly behind the
works
then why not? - but it isnt is it!

all the best
Brian

Nathan Garner said recently:

Sorry to go back to this… so, if I’ve been asked to externalise my
CSS, and all my menus are already using the CSS Menu action, how can
that be done? Does it mean removing that action and coding it
externally?

Think I’m going to be out of my depth with this one, and passing the
whole project over. :frowning:

Nathan Garner
Partner

Austin Wells Design Consultants
1 Elmgate Drive, Littledown, Bournemouth BH7 7EF
+44 (0)1202 301271
email@hidden
http://www.awdc-creative.com

Member of NAPP

On 17 Apr 2009, at 13:39, David Owen wrote:

+1 Make that pile a little bigger :slight_smile:

David

On 17 Apr 2009, at 13:34, Keith Martin wrote:

externalising those code elements is that it would make excellent
fertiliser. As in it is perhaps 98% a pile of manure.

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20

I just heard this referred to as telling someone which coconuts make
the best headphones!

All true.

Walter

On Apr 20, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Brian Steere wrote:

There’s a political correctness mentality - in my opinion - that is
obsessed
with ‘right practice’ rather than guided by it.
There is also a ‘SEO voodoo mentality’ - where almost any possible
tweak or
practice can be accorded more value than it actually has - an be
religiously
adhered to by the sellers of such services to the ignorant.

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