External Stylesheets

The whole reason for making styles in a separate stylesheet is to do
things that Freeway can’t do (or can’t do easily) in the normal
interface.

There is no earthly reason to replace the Freeway-drawn styles with
the same thing done over in an external stylesheet – and then wonder
why the interface is broken. Freeway is perfectly capable of creating
external stylesheets all by itself, and even if you have in-page
styles, there is nothing wrong with that approach at all.

The real reason for adding styles with CSSEdit and this Action is so
that you can do clever hand-coding things, and you don’t usually need
to apply those sorts of styles. If you are clever and hand-coding and
all, you know how to target elements without touching them in the
Freeway interface.

Draw a layered HTML box on the page, add some text and make links on
part of that text, make note of its name in the Inspector (item4 in
this example), then fire up your editor:

#item4 {
	border: 1px dashed red;
	padding: 8px;
	margin: -9px;
}
#item4 p a {
	text-decoration: none;
	padding: 3px 6px;
	margin: -3px -6px;
	background-color: #000;
	color: #fff;
}

Neither of these styles will show up in Freeway, but if you attach
this stylesheet to your page, then the box item4 will gain a bright
red dashed border, and all of the links that are children of paragraph
tags inside it (but not those that are children of list items or
headers) will become black boxes with white type inside. All without
you doing anything in Freeway besides loading this style sheet into
the page.

This is a silly example, but it demonstrates the sort of thing you can
do easily with a CSS editor that is non-trivial to do in Freeway
without risking RSI in the Extended dialog.

Walter

On Jan 29, 2009, at 4:56 PM, Robin Stark wrote:

But, where ARE these styles after I do this? I simply must be
missing something.


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…and all of the links that are children of paragraph tags inside it (but not those that are children of list items or headers) will become black boxes with white type inside.

Oooh, that’s a clever bit. I’ll remember that.


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One of the big “earthly reasons” is because when you hand a project off to someone else to work on (especially Windows users who don’t have Freeway) they have to go to multiple places to make any changes. I freelance a ton so this happens frequently.

Why not enable it to be in one place instead of having lots of little CSS files and CSS types in various formats?

I know about the file sizes argument, but I doubt any of us are using a super-huge style-sheet that would actually slow a site from loading up. It’s the same with inline styling for any CSS DIV items in Freeway. If they were outputted to a separate CSS sheet or even dropped in the external style-sheet then when you handed the project off to someone else then they’d be able to edit it.

I’ve actually got complaints from customers who had their designs handed to them and were upset that I didn’t give them a separate CSS sheet for the DIV items and that the style’s were inline.

But there’s nothing that can be done about it on my end other than using custom actions with it.


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One of the big “earthly reasons” is because when you hand a project off to someone else to work on (especially Windows users who don’t have Freeway) they have to go to multiple places to make any changes. I freelance a ton so this happens frequently.

…I’ve actually got complaints from customers who had their designs handed to them and were upset that I didn’t give them a separate CSS sheet for the DIV items and that the style’s were inline.

This is the main reason why using Freeway in a “commercial/professional” market is questionable. Although Freeway does make putting together web pages very easy, it is not following all coventions of today expected in the professional design market. As long as there is no “hand off” as you say then there is no issue, but once an outsider takes it on there are issues with the CSS.

In a perfect world this would not be and issue, but because the bulk of the imperfect world does not use Freeway it will remain an issue until Softpress changes it.


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I agree, Chuck. All valid points. That’s why custom written actions can achieve the unforeseen expectations of any customer. At least we have that aspect or it’d be like trying to shoot a game of pool with a rope.


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And I’ve lost commercial jobs because of it. As I’ve said before this
has been my experience and others will have different stories to
tell but that being said, using FW in a commercial setting isn’t
questionable, it’s simply not an option from the standpoint of the
people doing the hiring, by and large.

Commercial employers (the so-called “professionals”) do look at code
and they do ask questions about the use of inline and block-level CSS
and the sometimes huge chunks of javacsript in the head tags that FW
and/or actions generate. Sometimes they ask, “Why isn’t this in
external files?” They are not necessarily code-ignorant and they know
what they want and expect and rarely is the answer to the above
questions one they like. As far as the commercial market is concerned
tables are archaic, CSS is the de facto standard and inline or block-
level CSS is the mark of the lazy and/or amateur. Don’t even ask about
the lack of code access.

Yes, of course there are workarounds or actions to remedy some of
these things but as Dan J. mentioned the other day regarding the
process of using external stylesheets, it’s a beast of a process and
it shouldn’t have to be. It’s a hack for something so simple that’s
often expected. When it’s the commercial market that’s doing the
scrutinizing FW just doesn’t have the chops based on the feedback I’ve
received from potential employers and I can see their point in many
cases.

Todd

On Jan 30, 2009, at 11:00 AM, chuckamuck wrote:

…I’ve actually got complaints from customers who had their designs
handed to them and were upset that I didn’t give them a separate CSS
sheet for the DIV items and that the style’s were inline.

This is the main reason why using Freeway in a “commercial/
professional” market is questionable. Although Freeway does make
putting together web pages very easy, it is not following all
coventions of today expected in the professional design market. As
long as there is no “hand off” as you say then there is no issue,
but once an outsider takes it on there are issues with the CSS.

In a perfect world this would not be and issue, but because the bulk
of the imperfect world does not use Freeway it will remain an issue
until Softpress changes it.


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Sometime around 30/1/09 (at 12:00 -0500) chuckamuck said:

once an outsider takes it on there are issues with the CSS.

To be fair, most ‘hard core’ web programmers have issues with code
that comes from elsewhere, regardless of where that might be and how
it is built.

There are so many different ways to work, yet it is depressingly
common for a coding specialist to regard their preferred code
structuring approach to be the One True Way and all others just
various shades of imperfection.

k


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One project I worked on for a large US pharmaceutical company came
with a binder full of requirements from that company’s IT department,
one of which was that the height attribute for all images must come
before the width attribute. Seriously. Angels dancing on the heads of
pins and all that…

Walter

On Jan 31, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Keith Martin wrote:

To be fair, most ‘hard core’ web programmers have issues with code
that comes from elsewhere, regardless of where that might be and how
it is built.


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