Fin

Freeway
94

Hi James,
I was looking at your comment below and thinking that I’d always had the assumption that if you developed with RapidWeaver that you’d need to be prepared to purchase new stacks or themes to achieve the sort of things you wanted. However that was nothing more than an assumption.

What I’ve done is to pick the first site from the RapidWeaver gallery and see what stacks and other bits the creator has used to build the site.

From my limited knowledge of pulling these sites apart here’s my shopping list for this site;
http://rapidweavercommunity.com/gallery/chet-j-collins

RapidWeaver 7 - $99.00
Writer Theme - $29.00
Stacks 3 - $49.95
Font Pro Stack - $49.95
Foundation Stack - $59.95*
Houdini Stack - $4.95
Responsive Layout Stack - $19.95
Useful Stack - free

— Total cost in USD - $312.75

Header X Stack - £5.99**
True Retina Stack - £6.99**
Button Press 2 Stack - £6.99**
Responsive Shim Stack - £5.99**

— Total cost in GBP - £25.96**

Converted cost to USD - $33.69

Final cost (roughly) - $346.44

Obviously for an individual site the final cost could well be prohibitive for some users but you’ll obviously have to consider that you can use all of these resources on other projects as well as receiving support from their authors. I’d also imagine that, like Freeway, you could ‘get out and push’ and use markup items to achieve most of these effects rather than plonk down the reddies for the stacks which would bring the cost down considerably.

As I mentioned before RapidWeaver has a whole eco system around third party products (themes, stacks, training, hosting etc) and very much like WordPress plug-ins you’ll find several solutions to pretty much anything you’ll need with what appear to be most at the commercial end of the market.
Regards,
Tim.

  • The Foundation Stacks are available in different sets and I can’t tell from the source code which package the author is using. For the sake of argument I’ve chosen the cheapest option.
    ** I couldn’t easily find the UDS price for these stacks but have converted the GBP price to USD using the XE.com daily conversion rate.

On 11 Jul 2016, at 10:16, JDW email@hidden wrote:

But again, my main concern with RapidWeaver is how much I am going to be nickel-and-dimed for every little new thing I want to add to my sites build on that platform.

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

95

I will assume for now that Ernie Simpson shares your reasons for having remained faithful to Freeway all these years.

Just leave me out of it you stubborn ginger nutter.

Quit trying to bait me into replying to your stupid discussion. Freeway is not my religion or my girlfriend and I quite resent your assumptions on my part.

I used Freeway to generate a specific code-outcome, that’s all. Instead of using it to avoid learning any code, I embraced using it specifically to learn how websites are made. I actively encouraged others to do the same.

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

96

Gentlemen! You can’t fight here – this is the War Room!

Walter

On Jul 11, 2016, at 11:24 AM, The Big Erns email@hidden wrote:

I will assume for now that Ernie Simpson shares your reasons for having remained faithful to Freeway all these years.

Just leave me out of it you stubborn ginger nutter.

Quit trying to bait me into replying to your stupid discussion. Freeway is not my religion or my girlfriend and I quite resent your assumptions on my part.

I used Freeway to generate a specific code-outcome, that’s all. Instead of using it to avoid learning any code, I embraced using it specifically to learn how websites are made. I actively encouraged others to do the same.

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

97

On 11 Jul 2016, 3:27 pm, waltd wrote:

Gentlemen! You can’t fight here – this is the War Room!

Walter

I think they were after our bodily fluids Walt.

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

98

Thank you for your kind reply, Tim. That’s what I was thinking about the overall cost and is one reason why I have always been concerned about using RapidWeaver to get something done.

Mr. Simpson, thank you for your feedback as well. Understood.

Walter, if “this is the War Room,” why can’t we “fight here”? :wink:

Gingerly yours,

James Wages

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

99

On Jul 11, 2016, at 8:00 PM, JDW email@hidden wrote:

Walter, if “this is the War Room,” why can’t we “fight here”? :wink:

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:

100

Walter, thank you for the link. I learn something new every day.

Hopefully I won’t anger you as well by pointedly asking you this question, but what is your opinion on intuitive web design options for Freeway users “who don’t see the world as code”? (That may be a challenging question in light of how you see the world as code, but I value your opinion and is why I ask.) You too have been in the Freeway camp for decades. It’s obvious you never left for a reason, despite all the web design software out there.

Thus far, we’ve heard people in this thread pitch MUSE (Adobe… subscriptions… surely they must be kidding!), software from a Coffee Cup (but I don’t drink coffee, nor have I been impressed by the video I saw of it), and a tommy-gun worth of posts pitching RapidWeaver (which looks like a small loan may need to be taken out to pay for a decent site to be built, even with the discounts given to Freeway users in this thread).

Thanks,

James Wages

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

101

I’ve been teased by a number of different new apps lately – I put good money into that Kickstarter a while ago, only to have the app get bought and sunsetted by Invision, who already have their own Web-based prototyping app.

It’s frustrating. On the one hand, it seems pretty easy to put a wrapper over WebKit and make a Web design app out of it. There are tons of examples already, more coming it seems daily. But to have any of these work as Freeway does – a site at a time, rather than a page at a time – seems to be too much of an ask.

Freeway was and is a special snowflake, and I don’t see anyone else reaching for that particular set of features. Perhaps the market for that sort of application is smaller than you or I would like to admit.

As for my own needs, Freeway stopped being useful for the kind of work I do over 10 years ago, and while I have been able to do creative work with nothing but a text editor, I do miss the direct manipulation and intuitive “messing around” of the old days. I have to work harder in my left brain to get a result than I would like, if I’m honest.

In my dreams, Freeway would have grown with me, from PHP to Ruby, to whatever comes next. Every time a new version was in the works, I would put my wish list out there and make it known what I needed. Softpress seemed to keep chasing the beginner I once was, rather than the pro I became under its tutelage.

Walter

On Jul 11, 2016, at 9:18 PM, JDW email@hidden wrote:

Walter, thank you for the link. I learn something new every day.

Hopefully I won’t anger you as well by pointedly asking you this question, but what is your opinion on intuitive web design options for Freeway users “who don’t see the world as code”? (That may be a challenging question in light of how you see the world as code, but I value your opinion and is why I ask.) You too have been in the Freeway camp for decades. It’s obvious you never left for a reason, despite all the web design software out there.

Thus far, we’ve heard people in this thread pitch MUSE (Adobe… subscriptions… surely they must be kidding!), software from a Coffee Cup (but I don’t drink coffee, nor have I been impressed by the video I saw of it), and a tommy-gun worth of posts pitching RapidWeaver (which looks like a small loan may need to be taken out to pay for a decent site to be built, even with the discounts given to Freeway users in this thread).

Thanks,

James Wages

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

102

This is indeed a bit of a shock! I can’t say that I was one of those who seen this coming. I actually felt that the whole freeway project was beginning to embrace a next stage of significant development and I was investing more time on it as a tool with even greater potential for all my web design needs.

Its a particularly unwanted addition to the current sense of chaos and confusion which is afflicting the world.

This must be so very tough for those employed at Softpress. I hope that they have other opportunities come their way.

Like many others, Freeway gave me a way in to web design, with all the associated possibilities that emerged for work etc.
I am so very grateful to all who offered support and advice. Delta Dave, Walter and Big Ern in particular.
Like everyone else I shall have to take stock of where this leaves me in terms of the future. Thomas mentioned maybe another couple of years before there would be a need to leave Freeway behind. Who knows?

Will this forum become the saloon in the middle of a desolation after the gold rush? What is there at the end of a freeway?

Whilst the ramifications of the closure of Softpress will unfold I guess the concern is for support now for those in the middle of developing projects. It does leave many hanging at various stages of progress. Those transitioning form various versions of Freeway, those transitioning sites to responsive design and those trying to resolve niggles with existing work. I guess the fear for many may be that they may have nowhere to turn for support should this forum lose its focus.

There is a lot to take on board as a consequence of this end. Much of what has been said here on this forum has been enlightening.

I hope that this community can still continue to function and find a resolve, a new centre to build around.

All the very best to all at Softpress.

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

103

This post triggers a lot of thoughts and memories for me. Mostly that I’m sad to see that Freeway will never become what many of us hoped it would. I thought that once Softpress started writing the Cocoa apps (Exhibeo and Chroma), that maybe that knowledge would allow them to modernize Freeway. I know that SP aren’t Apple, but I had hoped that Apple’s model of rewriting Classic apps from the ground up would be taken by Softpress. Maybe they could have started by writing a basic web design app aimed at people who just wanted to make simple web sites using WYSIWYG. Output clean code and work very simply. Then build the new version of FW on that - Freeway X, perhaps. FWX would have the simple stuff but could do the things power users needed too, the things Walter mentions below, as well as be a modern program that could grow with the times.

Alas, it’s not meant to be. One can hardly blame Softpress, really. I can picture it now. While they are working on FWX, the web keeps moving. It’s a never-ending race and that costs time and money. Today it’s “responsive” but who knows what it will be tomorrow or the next day. Heck, that’s a big reason I got off the treadmill. I got tired of chasing technologies that were out before I figured out the last one.

Yet I still have web sites that I work on and expect to have to some degree for as long as I’m around. When/if FW stops working, I’ll need a replacement and I don’t know that any of them will make me as happy as FW did. Even if something does, I’ll miss this community we created around it.

On 12 Jul 2016, 1:52 am, waltd wrote:

It’s frustrating. On the one hand, it seems pretty easy to put a wrapper over WebKit and make a Web design app out of it. There are tons of examples already, more coming it seems daily. But to have any of these work as Freeway does – a site at a time, rather than a page at a time – seems to be too much of an ask.

Freeway was and is a special snowflake, and I don’t see anyone else reaching for that particular set of features. Perhaps the market for that sort of application is smaller than you or I would like to admit.

As for my own needs, Freeway stopped being useful for the kind of work I do over 10 years ago, and while I have been able to do creative work with nothing but a text editor, I do miss the direct manipulation and intuitive “messing around” of the old days. I have to work harder in my left brain to get a result than I would like, if I’m honest.

In my dreams, Freeway would have grown with me, from PHP to Ruby, to whatever comes next. Every time a new version was in the works, I would put my wish list out there and make it known what I needed. Softpress seemed to keep chasing the beginner I once was, rather than the pro I became under its tutelage.

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

104

Hi Joe,
Why does the community side of things need to stop? Softpress will go away, FreewayTalk will too but the users here can always transition to a new home. I’m keen to see the FW community supported in some way going forward as I’m sure there will be people who will want to carry on with the application and could do with a friendly ear to bend about their experiences.
Regards,
Tim.

On 12 Jul 2016, at 14:26, Joe Muscara email@hidden wrote:

I’ll need a replacement and I don’t know that any of them will make me as happy as FW did. Even if something does, I’ll miss this community we created around it.

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

105

Hi all… if I may chime in, I agree with Tim that if its possible to continue with a FW forum, I would really appreciate that… I will continue using FW app

I don’t see any reason why I cannot continue using what I have learned creating my own responsive sites from scratch with the wonderful help from the Softpress and fellow users… thx

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

106

On 12 Jul 2016, at 3:52, Walter Lee Davis wrote:

It’s frustrating. On the one hand, it seems pretty easy to put a
wrapper over WebKit and make a Web design app out of it. There are
tons of examples already, more coming it seems daily. But to have any
of these work as Freeway does – a site at a time, rather than a page
at a time – seems to be too much of an ask.

Freeway was and is a special snowflake, and I don’t see anyone else
reaching for that particular set of features. Perhaps the market for
that sort of application is smaller than you or I would like to admit.

A very interesting - and to the point - point.

It is probably a side effect of the fact that Freeway uses its own
proprietary file format, where each site literally is a single file
(from Freeway’s point of view) - it is only when the actual HTML is
generated that it becomes single pages. That Softpress chose that
approach, again, is is a sideeffect of the focus Freeway always has had
giving users a free option with regard to publishing a peace of text as
HTML vs as graphics - which probably is another very unique thing about
Freeway.

Since Webkit operates on the endresult - the site, th editor part must
somehow glue it together again in order to give the user the same site
control as Freeway does. It sounds like a backward way of putting
together a site design app …

If there exists a Web design programme that uses a single file for the
entire site, then perhaps we will see similar features … It did not
need to be a proprietary file format - it could be a single file XML
document which parted into single page sections and displayed, to the
users, as single pages … (In a way, CMS-es, such as Wordpress, has
some of these sideffects/features - except that CMS-es tend to focus on
items - article etc - rather than pages.)

As for my own needs, Freeway stopped being useful for the kind of work
I do over 10 years ago, and while I have been able to do creative work
with nothing but a text editor, I do miss the direct manipulation and
intuitive “messing around” of the old days. I have to work harder in
my left brain to get a result than I would like, if I’m honest.

In my dreams, Freeway would have grown with me, from PHP to Ruby, to
whatever comes next. Every time a new version was in the works, I
would put my wish list out there and make it known what I needed.
Softpress seemed to keep chasing the beginner I once was, rather than
the pro I became under its tutelage.

Allthough I am far from your level as a Web crafter, you have some
points.

leif halvard silli

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

107

dammit, freeway was the tool to build a decent website wich generates enough customers for me… now i’ve to find something else in the future…

joe and the others… thanks for the support and the great software and good luck with the new careers

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

108

Sure. But the reality is that people will migrate away from the FW community as they transition to new tools, and the community won’t be getting any new users to keep it alive.

Should we be discussing the future of FWTalk? If this [gestures around himself] goes away, what will we do next? Where should we go? Can we move these archives to a host one of us has and continue it there? I know there are some here who prefer the community to be primarily email-based as opposed to web-based. Otherwise, there are free forum hosts I could suggest.

On 12 Jul 2016, 2:17 pm, Tim Plumb wrote:

Hi Joe,
Why does the community side of things need to stop? Softpress will go away, FreewayTalk will too but the users here can always transition to a new home. I’m keen to see the FW community supported in some way going forward as I’m sure there will be people who will want to carry on with the application and could do with a friendly ear to bend about their experiences.
Regards,
Tim.

On 12 Jul 2016, at 14:26, Joe Muscara wrote:

I’ll need a replacement and I don’t know that any of them will make me as happy as FW did. Even if something does, I’ll miss this community we created around it.

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

109

This thread has helped me realize one important thing…

This forum needed either a sticky nav or a scroll up top button! :smiley:

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

110

They are there! [Most Recent] at the top, and [Back to Top] at the bottom, just above the reply form.

Walter

On Jul 13, 2016, at 1:23 PM, The Big Erns email@hidden wrote:

This thread has helped me realize one important thing…

This forum needed either a sticky nav or a scroll up top button! :smiley:

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

111

Hello Softpress and FreewayTalk community… I want to pause and extend my gratitude to Joe at Softpress and the many wonderful and helpful people who have been a part of this community, especially Walter, Tim, Max and several others.

A decade ago I embraced FreewayPro as a way to efficiently bring the building and managing of my companies sites in house. It has been a great tool and my hat is off to Softpress and it’s third party developers, your hard work has been valued and appreciated.

Thank You,
Dave

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

112

Freeway and myself have some history. Mostly superb, but with the occasional stumble. I still have the original caddy box and CD for Freeway 1.0.2, with free upgrade to version 2, bought at a Mac exhibition at Olympia in London. I could see the potential then, and stuck with it. I’m so glad I did.

I just hope I can find a worthy replacement that can give me similar advantages in speed, and hence costs, to clients. A sad time indeed, and I’ll take this opportunity to profusely thank all those who have been involved in the development of Freeway over the years. Thank you very much for giving me such a great piece of software to work with.

Ian Halstead

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

113

Ian H., your post reminded me of Freeway memorabilia I have from the past. I still have my Freeway frisbee! My kids love it.

–James Wages

freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options