Fin

Freeway
201

Hm, I think you’re correct James. Perhaps not dead for sure, but it is
fighting for its Macawlive on the Intensive Care… And if the right
surgeons are on duty…

I tried Blocs also this evening. I was surprised for its also ease of use
and rather pleasant responsiveness instead of being adaptive like FW or
Webydo.
Certainly not complet. No built-in FTP, poor color options, a little
difficult way to import PDF’s and I can’t change paragraph alignment at
smaller breakpoints without affecrting the others.

But the program is stable, feels solid and is frequently updated the last
couple off months I saw. They’re working hard to get it better every time.
And… they have tooltips ! :wink:

What is excactly the problem to not use a subscription based app? That it
will never be yours? Or you’re committed to Adobe for years?
But I’ve been sticked to Adobe for more then 20 years with Illustrator,
Photoshop… and to be honest: I’m very happy with their software.

And if it is really a big problem, (lets get this clear: I’m not promoting
it) there is also a ‘gray circuit’ to buy software a lot cheaper.

2016-07-27 2:20 GMT+02:00 JDW email@hidden:

Andries, Macaw is dead. The developers sold out and the buyer doesn’t
look like a company that’s interested in a web design app.

Macaw is joining InVision!

So for that category of web design app, you are left with Sparkle or
Blocs. (Sorry, MUSE may be in the category too, but there’s no way I’ll
ever recommend a subscription based app. Never.)

James Wages

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202

Andries, I am hoping Serif will improve Affinity Designer and Photo to such an extent no one ever needs Photoshop and Illustrator again. I own both apps and don’t use them right now, but I paid for them to support the developer’s efforts. With each passing version, they look more and more promising. I also contribute in their forums to suggest new features. Thankfully, they listen and implement! Suffice it to say, I hate subscription models. I want to buy an app and then decide if I want to upgrade to the next version or skip a version or 2. With a subscription model, you can’t do that. It’s all forced down your throat while your wallet slowly gets drained. No thanks.

I’ve not checked out the Blocs trial since I am still giving Sparkle a thorough exam. Maybe later. But thanks for sharing your thoughts on it. Glad to hear about the tooltips too! :slight_smile:

–James Wages

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Hey Andries,

My name is Norm, I’m the creator of Blocs. Just want to follow up on your coments on the limitations of Blocs.

Blocs has 2 levels of controls, the basics in the sidebar and the more complex custom classes. The options in the sidebar let you get all your basic styling in place along with adding animations and tooltips. At the top of the sidebar is a section labelled custom classes, typing into this field and hitting return adds a class to an object and a tag to the classes field, clicking this tag in the classes field opens up the far more advanced class options that let you control pretty much anything.

Opening and editing these classes at the different breakpoints lets you create a truly unique experience on each breakpoint. The colour settings here support opacity and you can align type based on breakpoint too.

You can read all about custom classes and styling your site per breakpoint here: http://help.blocsapp.com/custom-classes/

Enjoy exploring Blocs.

Norm

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204

James, a word in defence of the Adobe subscription model if I may:

You are obviously not a fan, which is well documented on here - more or less in every one of your posts :wink:

However, as a professional business it REALLY helps cashflow. Affinity photo, although a great piece of software, is nowhere close to being able to offer the same facilities as the Photoshop/Lightroom combination and in my opinion it will be a long time before it can.

The adobe bundle, at £8.70 a month saves me investing (an awful lot of) cash upfront. Given that the best price for both, before cc, was about £700… well you do the maths! Some of the updates you say are “forced down your throat” have saved me an enormous amount of time (therefore money too) so, for me, it is excellent.

There is not a single day goes by when I don’t use Photoshop, Lightroom and Illustrator for MOST of my working day. I do have Affinity Designer and I agree it is a superb piece of software given the price however, it simply does not have some of the features of Illustrator that I use every time I open the software.

In case you are wondering, I do not work for, nor am I associated with, Adobe in any way but I just wanted to point out that your assumption that I would never need (or want) to use Photoshop and Illustrator again is wide of the mark.

I would not normally post a reply like this but your insistance on mentioning it almost every time you post prompted me to perhaps suggest that there is an alternative view to yours and your apparent assumption that we ALL feel the same as you ("I am hoping Serif will improve Affinity Designer and Photo to such an extent no one ever needs Photoshop and Illustrator again) is simply wrong and I wish that you would stop assuming that everyone feels the same.

In my eyes, It gives all the other things you say less credibility.

Best wishes

Mark

On 27 Jul 2016, 3:03 am, JDW wrote:

Andries, I am hoping Serif will improve Affinity Designer and Photo to such an extent no one ever needs Photoshop and Illustrator again. I own both apps and don’t use them right now, but I paid for them to support the developer’s efforts. With each passing version, they look more and more promising. I also contribute in their forums to suggest new features. Thankfully, they listen and implement! Suffice it to say, I hate subscription models. I want to buy an app and then decide if I want to upgrade to the next version or skip a version or 2. With a subscription model, you can’t do that. It’s all forced down your throat while your wallet slowly gets drained. No thanks.

I’ve not checked out the Blocs trial since I am still giving Sparkle a thorough exam. Maybe later. But thanks for sharing your thoughts on it. Glad to hear about the tooltips too! :slight_smile:

–James Wages

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Norm,

I just created a new thread dedicated to Blocs. And if you don’t mind, I have a question for you there. Better we discuss Blocs there than further clog this Fin thread.

https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/thread/view/170255

Mark,

The subscription model is great for people who always want to pay for the latest version, I agree. But here in Japan, there are a lot of companies still using CS4 and earlier. Sometimes you want to send them a CS6 file but they ask you to down-save it! And not many are using CC simply because people here really hate subscriptions. Companies here really try to save pennies where possible, forcing employees to use the same software until they absolutely positively have to upgrade. So even though the one-time cost is big for them, their “cash flow” is actually better with a non-subscription model insofar as a lot less cash flows out of their hands if they don’t commonly upgrade but once every blue moon.

And while I agree the Affinity apps won’t be an Adobe replacement for a while (consider well how long Photoshop and Illustrator have been available – since the 80’s!), Serif has a lot of work to do. However, if you look at the feature set now, they have a lot of major features found in the Adobe apps. So I don’t think it will take Serif 20 years to match Adobe. Probably 5 years hence Serif will have caught up, offering 90% of the major features Adobe users expect. And to ensure that happens I shall remain vigilant in their forums making suggestions. You should too. For you never know when you will want to exit that subscription model. And when you do exit an Adobe subscription, all you’ll have remaining is a file viewer.

Best,

James Wages

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206

On 27 Jul 2016, at 10:01, MarkSmith wrote:

James, a word in defence of the Adobe subscription model if I may:

You are obviously not a fan, which is well documented on here - more or less in every one of your posts :wink:

However, as a professional business it REALLY helps cashflow. Affinity photo, although a great piece of software, is nowhere close to being able to offer the same facilities as the Photoshop/Lightroom combination and in my opinion it will be a long time before it can.

The adobe bundle, at £8.70 a month saves me investing (an awful lot of) cash upfront. Given that the best price for both, before cc, was about £700… well you do the maths! Some of the updates you say are “forced down your throat” have saved me an enormous amount of time (therefore money too) so, for me, it is excellent.

There is not a single day goes by when I don’t use Photoshop, Lightroom and Illustrator for MOST of my working day. I do have Affinity Designer and I agree it is a superb piece of software given the price however, it simply does not have some of the features of Illustrator that I use every time I open the software.

In case you are wondering, I do not work for, nor am I associated with, Adobe in any way but I just wanted to point out that your assumption that I would never need (or want) to use Photoshop and Illustrator again is wide of the mark.

I would not normally post a reply like this but your insistance on mentioning it almost every time you post prompted me to perhaps suggest that there is an alternative view to yours and your apparent assumption that we ALL feel the same as you ("I am hoping Serif will improve Affinity Designer and Photo to such an extent no one ever needs Photoshop and Illustrator again) is simply wrong and I wish that you would stop assuming that everyone feels the same.

In my eyes, It gives all the other things you say less credibility.

Best wishes

Mark

There’s no need for what James says about the subscription model to reduce the credibility of what else he says. He also said some days ago “I’ve always done website work in my free time. It’s not my full time job.”. Therefore the cost spreading aspect does not necessarily apply. He hasn’t (I don’t think) commented on a real alternative purchase price, probably because there isn’t one now. I do less web page work than James, and for me the cost of upgrades to Freeway isn’t ‘worth’ it - I’m only up to date because of support for Softpress, never having even opened 7. I mainly use WP and TextWranger for what little I do. No Adobe product is worth the cost either way for me, I’m not in that world. And James isn’t in the subscription model world.

David

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207

But a lot of us are David, and both views are relevant…
Trev

There’s no need for what James says about the subscription model to reduce the credibility of what else he says. He also said some days ago “I’ve always done website work in my free time. It’s not my full time job.”. Therefore the cost spreading aspect does not necessarily apply. He hasn’t (I don’t think) commented on a real alternative purchase price, probably because there isn’t one now. I do less web page work than James, and for me the cost of upgrades to Freeway isn’t ‘worth’ it - I’m only up to date because of support for Softpress, never having even opened 7. I mainly use WP and TextWranger for what little I do. No Adobe product is worth the cost either way for me, I’m not in that world. And James isn’t in the subscription model world.

David

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David

If James or anyone else doesn’t want to enter that world, that’s fine, but nor should they assume that ALL of us feel that same (which is what James actually said in his post)

If it’s not for him that’s fine, but that fact that he is almost on the verge of being dogmatic, for me, lessens the credibility because the perception is that it is not balanced - and after all, perception is reality.

For me, the equivalent cost of 3 cups of costa coffee a month is well worth it but I won’t (and will never) assume that’s the case for EVERYONE.

I was just introducing some balance to the discussion by pointing out the advantages of a subscription model because it introduces an enormous amount of affordability for small businesses to stay current. In my situation, there have been a few times when updates have saved time and money, increasing my profitability through spending less time editing. This has far outweighed the cost of the subscription.

Mark

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James

I completely get that but the point I was responding to was your assumption that your own dislike of the subscription model was shared by everyone!

And your assumptions continue…

(“And when you do exit an Adobe subscription, all you’ll have remaining is a file viewer.”)

That is what is losing you credibility in MY eyes. It’s bordering on dogmatic.

Mark

On 27 Jul 2016, 9:54 am, JDW wrote:

Norm,

I just created a new thread dedicated to Blocs. And if you don’t mind, I have a question for you there. Better we discuss Blocs there than further clog this Fin thread.

https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/thread/view/170255

Mark,

The subscription model is great for people who always want to pay for the latest version, I agree. But here in Japan, there are a lot of companies still using CS4 and earlier. Sometimes you want to send them a CS6 file but they ask you to down-save it! And not many are using CC simply because people here really hate subscriptions. Companies here really try to save pennies where possible, forcing employees to use the same software until they absolutely positively have to upgrade. So even though the one-time cost is big for them, their “cash flow” is actually better with a non-subscription model insofar as a lot less cash flows out of their hands if they don’t commonly upgrade but once every blue moon.

And while I agree the Affinity apps won’t be an Adobe replacement for a while (consider well how long Photoshop and Illustrator have been available – since the 80’s!), Serif has a lot of work to do. However, if you look at the feature set now, they have a lot of major features found in the Adobe apps. So I don’t think it will take Serif 20 years to match Adobe. Probably 5 years hence Serif will have caught up, offering 90% of the major features Adobe users expect. And to ensure that happens I shall remain vigilant in their forums making suggestions. You should too. For you never know when you will want to exit that subscription model. And when you do exit an Adobe subscription, all you’ll have remaining is a file viewer.

Best,

James Wages

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210

@Norm
Thnx for making things more clearly! It was late in the evening and I was
just fiddling around with a fake site. As said before, Blocs feels solid
and rigid and my first opinion was that is misses some finesse. But
there’s more to explore as you explained, but my eyes weren’t helpful
anymore in the middle of the night.

What I actually noticed: Blocs looks through the dark interface somewhat more
professional, but Sparkle by the lighter interface looks fresher and easier
to use. Like I need less digging or courage to achieve what I want.
I have not made any comparison but this is a subconscious impression, pure
a visual first impression, no verdict at all!
Both programs stands out in the crowd.

Like many of us, we all want all options in a simple to use program. For a
low price please :wink:
In practice, I think that 80% of the users use only 30% of the capabilities
of the software. Photoshop is also a good example of this.
Only it feels good and save to have all the options available if necessary.
It is also cool to tell clients all the possibilities what you can offer,
but how many clients ask for it or want to use it. Let alone pay for it?

Bus as said, you are updating frequently Blocs to satisfy all your users,
keep up the good work Norm!

Andries

2016-07-27 12:25 GMT+02:00 MarkSmith email@hidden:

David

If James or anyone else doesn’t want to enter that world, that’s fine, but
nor should they assume that ALL of us feel that same (which is what James
actually said in his post)

If it’s not for him that’s fine, but that fact that he is almost on the
verge of being dogmatic, for me, lessens the credibility because the
perception is that it is not balanced - and after all, perception is
reality.

For me, the equivalent cost of 3 cups of costa coffee a month is well
worth it but I won’t (and will never) assume that’s the case for EVERYONE.

I was just introducing some balance to the discussion by pointing out the
advantages of a subscription model because it introduces an enormous amount
of affordability for small businesses to stay current. In my situation,
there have been a few times when updates have saved time and money,
increasing my profitability through spending less time editing. This has
far outweighed the cost of the subscription.

Mark

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211

@Mark
I agree his point of view with the subscription model, I pay less than the
years with CS before (and therefore rarely updated my software) but what is
also the issue in the real, professional world: you have to deal with other
companies, printers for example. So being compatible with your software AND
up-to-date versions will give your workflow more smileys.
Lets be honest, if you like it or not, Adobe’s software (esp. postscript)
has given us all in the graphic world a tremendous productionboost.
To our merit.

Andries

2016-07-27 13:04 GMT+02:00 email@hidden:

@Norm
Thnx for making things more clearly! It was late in the evening and I was
just fiddling around with a fake site. As said before, Blocs feels solid
and rigid and my first opinion was that is misses some finesse. But
there’s more to explore as you explained, but my eyes weren’t helpful
anymore in the middle of the night.

What I actually noticed: Blocs looks through the dark interface somewhat more
professional, but Sparkle by the lighter interface looks fresher and easier
to use. Like I need less digging or courage to achieve what I want.
I have not made any comparison but this is a subconscious impression, pure
a visual first impression, no verdict at all!
Both programs stands out in the crowd.

Like many of us, we all want all options in a simple to use program. For a
low price please :wink:
In practice, I think that 80% of the users use only 30% of the capabilities
of the software. Photoshop is also a good example of this.
Only it feels good and save to have all the options available if necessary.

It is also cool to tell clients all the possibilities what you can offer,
but how many clients ask for it or want to use it. Let alone pay for it?

Bus as said, you are updating frequently Blocs to satisfy all your users,
keep up the good work Norm!

Andries

2016-07-27 12:25 GMT+02:00 MarkSmith email@hidden:

David

If James or anyone else doesn’t want to enter that world, that’s fine,
but nor should they assume that ALL of us feel that same (which is what
James actually said in his post)

If it’s not for him that’s fine, but that fact that he is almost on the
verge of being dogmatic, for me, lessens the credibility because the
perception is that it is not balanced - and after all, perception is
reality.

For me, the equivalent cost of 3 cups of costa coffee a month is well
worth it but I won’t (and will never) assume that’s the case for EVERYONE.

I was just introducing some balance to the discussion by pointing out the
advantages of a subscription model because it introduces an enormous amount
of affordability for small businesses to stay current. In my situation,
there have been a few times when updates have saved time and money,
increasing my profitability through spending less time editing. This has
far outweighed the cost of the subscription.

Mark

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212

@Mark
I agree his point of view with the subscription model, I pay less than the
years with CS before (and therefore rarely updated my software) but what is
also the issue in the real, professional world: you have to deal with other
companies, printers for example. So being compatible with your software AND
up-to-date versions will give your workflow more smileys.
Lets be honest, if you like it or not, Adobe’s software (esp. postscript)
has given us all in the graphic world a tremendous productionboost.
To our merit.

Andries

In addition to James’ point of view: I don’t have clients in the middle
East. I work for companies in Western Europe, 98% Holland. My goal is
efficiency.
Time is money. I need software to get things nicely done, fast and good. In
the Far East, wages are lower so the factor ‘labortime’ is probably
different?

2016-07-27 13:04 GMT+02:00 email@hidden:

@Norm
Thnx for making things more clearly! It was late in the evening and I was
just fiddling around with a fake site. As said before, Blocs feels solid
and rigid and my first opinion was that is misses some finesse. But
there’s more to explore as you explained, but my eyes weren’t helpful
anymore in the middle of the night.

What I actually noticed: Blocs looks through the dark interface somewhat more
professional, but Sparkle by the lighter interface looks fresher and easier
to use. Like I need less digging or courage to achieve what I want.
I have not made any comparison but this is a subconscious impression, pure
a visual first impression, no verdict at all!
Both programs stands out in the crowd.

Like many of us, we all want all options in a simple to use program. For a
low price please :wink:
In practice, I think that 80% of the users use only 30% of the capabilities
of the software. Photoshop is also a good example of this.
Only it feels good and save to have all the options available if necessary.

It is also cool to tell clients all the possibilities what you can offer,
but how many clients ask for it or want to use it. Let alone pay for it?

Bus as said, you are updating frequently Blocs to satisfy all your users,
keep up the good work Norm!

Andries

2016-07-27 12:25 GMT+02:00 MarkSmith email@hidden:

David

If James or anyone else doesn’t want to enter that world, that’s fine,
but nor should they assume that ALL of us feel that same (which is what
James actually said in his post)

If it’s not for him that’s fine, but that fact that he is almost on the
verge of being dogmatic, for me, lessens the credibility because the
perception is that it is not balanced - and after all, perception is
reality.

For me, the equivalent cost of 3 cups of costa coffee a month is well
worth it but I won’t (and will never) assume that’s the case for EVERYONE.

I was just introducing some balance to the discussion by pointing out the
advantages of a subscription model because it introduces an enormous amount
of affordability for small businesses to stay current. In my situation,
there have been a few times when updates have saved time and money,
increasing my profitability through spending less time editing. This has
far outweighed the cost of the subscription.

Mark

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213

Ha, its beginning to look like politics, I notice that in politics people who
disagree with a particular situation, find that they have more right than those
who are in agreement with the situation. Everyone works best in the
way that suits
him.
Is my humble opinion.

2016-07-27 12:37 GMT+02:00 MarkSmith email@hidden:

James

I completely get that but the point I was responding to was your
assumption that your own dislike of the subscription model was shared by
everyone!

And your assumptions continue…

(“And when you do exit an Adobe subscription, all you’ll have remaining is
a file viewer.”)

That is what is losing you credibility in MY eyes. It’s bordering on
dogmatic.

Mark

On 27 Jul 2016, 9:54 am, JDW wrote:

Norm,

I just created a new thread dedicated to Blocs. And if you don’t mind,
I have a question for you there. Better we discuss Blocs there than
further clog this Fin thread.

https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/thread/view/170255

Mark,

The subscription model is great for people who always want to pay for
the latest version, I agree. But here in Japan, there are a lot of
companies still using CS4 and earlier. Sometimes you want to send them a
CS6 file but they ask you to down-save it! And not many are using CC
simply because people here really hate subscriptions. Companies here
really try to save pennies where possible, forcing employees to use the
same software until they absolutely positively have to upgrade. So even
though the one-time cost is big for them, their “cash flow” is actually
better with a non-subscription model insofar as a lot less cash flows out
of their hands if they don’t commonly upgrade but once every blue moon.

And while I agree the Affinity apps won’t be an Adobe replacement for a
while (consider well how long Photoshop and Illustrator have been available
– since the 80’s!), Serif has a lot of work to do. However, if you look
at the feature set now, they have a lot of major features found in the
Adobe apps. So I don’t think it will take Serif 20 years to match Adobe.
Probably 5 years hence Serif will have caught up, offering 90% of the major
features Adobe users expect. And to ensure that happens I shall remain
vigilant in their forums making suggestions. You should too. For you
never know when you will want to exit that subscription model. And when
you do exit an Adobe subscription, all you’ll have remaining is a file
viewer.

Best,

James Wages

freewaytalk mailing list
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214

“Enjoy exploring Blocs.
Norm”

Hi Norm,
I started exploring Blocs, but after 7 days or so the trial was over.
This is much, much to short for trying out everything.
A 30 day trial would be great.

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215
  • I agree Mark
  • well spoken Andries :wink:

There is no right or wrong. Better or worse.
It is only the needs that are different, so are the applications that one will choose. That’s all.

I am grateful that we - being altogether in a similar situation of the loss of FW - can share our ideas. Help each other. It supports so much.
We should exchange our experiences here without judging a different approach.
Btw Adobe subscription is the one for me too.

Hanna

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On 27 Jul 2016, at 11:23, Trevor Reaveley wrote:

But a lot of us are David, and both views are relevant…
Trev

There’s no need for what James says about the subscription model to reduce the credibility of what else he says. He also said some days ago “I’ve always done website work in my free time. It’s not my full time job.”. Therefore the cost spreading aspect does not necessarily apply. He hasn’t (I don’t think) commented on a real alternative purchase price, probably because there isn’t one now. I do less web page work than James, and for me the cost of upgrades to Freeway isn’t ‘worth’ it - I’m only up to date because of support for Softpress, never having even opened 7. I mainly use WP and TextWranger for what little I do. No Adobe product is worth the cost either way for me, I’m not in that world. And James isn’t in the subscription model world.

David

Exactly. That’s why there’s no need for “It gives all the other things you say less credibility” about James.

On 27 Jul 2016, at 11:25, MarkSmith wrote:

If James or anyone else doesn’t want to enter that world, that’s fine, but nor should they assume that ALL of us feel that same (which is what James actually said in his post)

If it’s not for him that’s fine, but that fact that he is almost on the verge of being dogmatic, for me, lessens the credibility because the perception is that it is not balanced - and after all, perception is reality.

For me, the equivalent cost of 3 cups of costa coffee a month is well worth it but I won’t (and will never) assume that’s the case for EVERYONE.

I was just introducing some balance to the discussion by pointing out the advantages of a subscription model because it introduces an enormous amount of affordability for small businesses to stay current. In my situation, there have been a few times when updates have saved time and money, increasing my profitability through spending less time editing. This has far outweighed the cost of the subscription.

Mark

In this discussion James has always stressed “for him” just as my opinion is “for me”. It’s not a matter of “If James or anyone else doesn’t want to enter that world”, it’s that you’re in it as a full time web designer or you’re not. For a few years I was paid £400p/a for adding data to a FW site I designed on a monthly basis. Hardly the Adobe market. Everything else is low key and for free. I’ve earned my money with other skills, as, I presume, has James. People can only, truthfully and with knowledge, state what’s right for them from what they’ve tried.

Personally I applaud James for trying different products and reporting to us on how well they suit him.

David

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217

And so do I David but there’s a big difference between “that doesn’t work for me” and “that won’t work for you either.”

Quote(s):

#“I am hoping Serif will improve Affinity Designer and Photo to such an extent no one ever needs Photoshop and Illustrator again.”

It doesn’t reflect the views of everyone.

#“People can only, truthfully and with knowledge, state what’s right for them from what they’ve tried.”

For ME (as I have said throughout this ) dogma loses people credibility. I wouldn’t be as presumptuous as to suggest you feel the same!

Mark

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218

I wrote a whole long thank you and goodbye to Joe and Softpress, sent it, and it never went thru… so maybe that is a sign.

Either way; Thank you for all you have done for me, my website and the 1000’s of students and families you have helped over the years.

Dave and Walt, I am forever grateful for all you have done for me and HOFFKIDS.com and the millions of tips and the time you have spent with me. You are so giving, and true educators!

Roxanne from Softpress was the 1st person I spoke to when looking into FW and she said it would all work out very well; and it did.

Good luck Joe, Richard, and the Softpress team. I know you will continue with greatness.

Thanks for an amazing 5 years of learning and site development.

Barry Hoffman

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219

I’ve read a lot here in FIN. I’m with FWP since many years now. To be honest: it is not correct and it is not fair to just say “we’re done” from one day to another.

I know nothing about the reasons – they might be a few good ones to do that step – but it has nothing to do with good or let’s say professional behavior. I’am very disappointed about that.

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220

On 30 Jul 2016, at 12:11, Thomas wrote:

I’ve read a lot here in FIN. I’m with FWP since many years now. To be honest: it is not correct and it is not fair to just say “we’re done” from one day to another.

I know nothing about the reasons – they might be a few good ones to do that step – but it has nothing to do with good or let’s say professional behavior. I’am very disappointed about that.

They may have had no option. I’ve only been employed by one company that closed down under me - and that had a parent in another country that kept going, so there were people ultimately in charge. There was no time. There was even a secretary who had to type out her own redundancy notice. One day there is a company, the next there isn’t. No-one to tell people first (because it hasn’t happened and the staff don’t know) - or afterwards (because they’re not there). Joe (B) has told us something, but it’s quite likely that he wouldn’t be being paid at that time.

David

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