Thomas,
File > Document Setup > Output:
Reinforce layout tables is enabled (which I assume uses _clear.gif).
I am using HTML 4.01 Transitional for Default HTML, but that “Reinforce” option is available even for HTML5 pages.
In the past, if that setting was not enabled, there would have been be some layout issues in some browsers. I have no idea whether that still applies now though. Do you?
–James Wages
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From what I recall its was a technique used years ago but modern css now does all this.
From what I can remember turning the re-enforce table layout checkbox off disables most of that usage of that method.
James why are you still using 4.01 Transitional ? The original 4 dates back to 1990 and is probably the oldest version of HTML still in us. its also has the looses syntax, unfortunately all browsers interpret HTML slightly differently, and with the number of different browsers and operating systems used today makes HTML4 at best unreliable in terms visually. it also means you can’t use Canvas or video tags or button tags etc…
HTML5 is much simpler and I mean much simpler and at some point that simplicity will ultimately have an effect on performace which in-turn is going to have an impact on how google ranks your site…
anyway if you are trying to nail down every single best practice precedure then using 4 isn’t the way to go
max
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Max,
So if I DISABLE “Reinforce layout tables” Freeway will generate that “modern CSS” of which you speak to hold everything properly together in all major browsers on desktop and mobile?
I’m still using HTML 4.01 Transitional because it is compatible with nearly everything and I don’t really need the CANVAS and because that’s what all my sites were built upon in Freeway, AND because I don’t know what is going to break if I just flip the setting to HTML5 in my existing sites. HTML5 is more strict than HTML4, right? So that means some parts of my site will surely “break,” right?
–James Wages
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Hi James thats not what I meant… what I meant was freeway produces pretty darn good code in fact I don’t know of another system out there that you can flick from table layout to layer layout and republish… its a marvel realy. With that the ability to swop back and forth to html 5 /4 etc makes this even better
Personally unless someone is paying me I wouldn’t republish to the newer HTML5 syntax but going forward I wouldn’t build use HTML4 unless there is a real requirement; like in making table based emailer.
But if you must then make a copy of the artwork project and site folder and then when you have a duplicate you can use that as a test by just try by setting it to HTML5 and see what you get… if you see no differences and everything functioning then you are home and dry.
Max
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It’s evening here, so I’ll do some experiments tomorrow, starting with the DISABLING of “Reinforce layout tables.” But the Freeway Reference Manual has the following to say…
Specifying whether layout tables are reinforced
When you position non-CSS layer items on the page,
Freeway 5 Pro reproduces the design using invisible
HTML layout tables. Freeway 5 Express, which does
not have the CSS layer option, always publishes designs
using HTML layout tables. These tables are automatically
reinforced by Freeway to prevent possible collapse or
distortion, produced by some browsers. Freeway
reinforces using invisible single-pixel GIF images.Of course, Freeway allows you to create tabular data in the form of a “Table,” and I would assume those are reinforced by _clear.gif too. Although it’s not clear if that reinforcement is dependent upon having “Reinforce layout tables" ENABLED.
As to fiddling with HTML5, I’ll switch my HTML4 site to that tomorrow. But I suspect it will be a mess in light of the fact I use a lot of Actions and have JS and CSS code splattered all over the place. In the end, I may need to revert back to HTML4. If it isn’t broke, why fix it?
During my testing, I will see if INLINE STYLES are eliminated because of the changes.
Thanks,
James Wages
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Well, I did a Save Archive on one of my English sites and switched it from HTML4 to HTML5. Here’s my preliminary report.
PROBLEM#1
As I thought, one of the first Actions that broke was one of Walter’s (I use a lot of his Actions). Specifically, the CSS3 Text Shadow Action does not work on HTML5 pages for some reason:
http://actionsforge.com/actions/css3-text-shadow
PROBLEM#2
I deleted that Action and retried Publish. The next Action that broke was Paul Dunning’s Caxton Action:
http://actionsforge.com/actions/caxton
It generates a crazy error that says:
“Too many font files.”
Funny because I only use Caxton to manage up to 2 web fonts on any given page.
Anyway, OKing that dialog allows the Publish to proceed, but I get the error dialog on every single page where Caxton is used, which is a lot. Sheesh!
PROBLEM#3
Relative Page Layout Action (version 1.3.15). I am seeing some single pixel shifting of my CSS Menus, which I am not sure how to fix. I’ll need to investigate this further.
PROBLEM#4
Inline STYLES are used whenever a Table is used on the page. Here’s what I see at the top of the BODY tag in the HTML output of the top page in my site:
<body>
<form action="//visionsecurity.jp/en/search_results.html" method=get>
<div id="PageDiv">
<table style="border-spacing:0px; width:248px; table-layout:fixed">
<colgroup><col style="width:248px"></colgroup>
<tr style="vertical-align:top">
<td style="width:248px; height:927px"></td></tr>
<tr style="vertical-align:top">
<td style="width:248px; height:22px"></td></tr></table>I still need to go through each and every page in my big site and also test HTML5 on my other sites, including my Japanese sites, but this is my report for now.
–James Wages
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No replies this morning. I guess everyone’s on vacation. 
As I said yesterday, even when switching from HTML4 to HTML5, “inline styles” are not eliminated when tables are used.
The table tool is useful in Freeway to allow anyone to easily put Excel-like tabular data on a web page. If one wishes to argue “just make a table in the MODERN way,” I will counter argue that Freeway’s Table tool should do it for me “that other MODERN way.” I’m so sick and tired of non-WYSIWYG code hacks to make my site look “just ok.” Honestly, I came to Freeway back in 1999 to free myself from code. Now I use so much code I am drawing in it and my creativity has quite nearly been flushed down the toilet as a result.
The existence of the following tool proves that inline styles used by tables CAN be extracted:
As such, if “inline styles” are truly taboo these days, then it’s clear that Freeway needs to provide a new user-selectable option: “Don’t Use Inline Styles.”
Jeremy…?
Walter, I hacked your CSS Text Shadow action into obedience.
BEFORE:
<action-appliesto html4 html32css xhtml xhtmlstrict />AFTER:
<action-appliesto html5 html4 html32css xhtml xhtmlstrict />Seems to work. If you don’t have any objections, you might want to update your action. For now, I will use my hacked version.
Regarding my previous post:
–James Wages
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I continue to check the HTML5 output of my site and am confused about the continued use of _clear.gif.
I have this DISABLED:
File > Document Setup > Output > Reinforce layout Tables
But when I have a visible table on the page, Freeway reinforces it with _clear.gif.
Another confusing thing about that setting is the Tooltip. When I place my mouse arrow cursor over the “Reinforce layout Tables” checkbox, I see the following text:
Method of reinforcing tables in XHTML output
If that Tooltip content is correct, then it ONLY applies when the page HTML level is set to XHTML. It would not apply to HTML4 Transitional or HTML5. But if it DOES APPLY, then the Tooltip is incorrect.
Jeremy…?
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Hi Jeremy sorry I have been a out of the loop for a day
I have had a quick read through and I noticed you removed caption . I use caxton on my sites and i don’t have those problems so you may want to check to see if that action is the latest
Tables is one of those areas that was and still is a inline styles mess.
So I created an action that cleans tables out of all those inlines
it does mean you need tho write styles for tables but its the only way that it can be done at this moment with the way freeway writes tables.
If you are intersected here is the actions and a freeway template which shows responsive text and line hight plus margin bottoms on text which again is responsive. I have also included responsive tables, forms, text blocks. I also show how to order styles within freeway plus how to use rems as text units, plus things like introducing hyphenations in text and how to get rid of orphaned or widowed text in text block even if they are responsive. Plus how to create external style sheets within freeway and still be able to edit them with freeway.
I need to make a video about this template works because most of the stuff is not that obvious
speak soon max
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This is James (not Jeremy).
The latest version of Caxton is 1.0b8:
http://actionsforge.com/actions/caxton
I am using that newest version.
I downloaded your template and am viewing “04. Table Guide” in Safari. When I try to add color to different rows in the body, nothing happens in Preview or in the browser. So it appears that you lose WYSIWYG editing control when those 3 Actions are applied to the cells. I guess this is the part that is “not that obvious.”
James W.
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Hi jeremy that correct
you lose the normal visual feedback and thats were freeways visual feedback lets us down it doesn’t represent what you are going to get
I am sure these are the sort of thing the new freeway will be tackling. The only way to style tables after those actions are applied is by writing the css correctly within either freeways edit styles or via one of the external style sheets which are in the css folder in the site panel
You can see my approach isn’t for the feint hearted its a half way house between complete a visual editor or a text editor… At the moment I am trying to hook up Freeway, Codekit and PostCSS with possible the rucksack plugin so I can start to write truly responsive scaling text by the use CSS 'locks ’ but all this pushing the boundaries of what freeway can do has meant visual feedback is sacrificed.
speak soon max
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Hi,
Caxton has capacity for 20 fonts files per instance on a page. I expect that if you lumped all your files in one folder, and there are more than 20 that it will fail.
Typically, a font package from somewhere like FontSquirrel (or those generated by FontPrep) will be in a folder:
/fontname/
styles.css
font.woff
font.ttf
etc…
/secondFontName/
styles.css
font.woff
font.ttf
etc…
If you are lumping these into one folder, and there are more than 20 (that’s 20 separate ttf files 20 separate woff files, etc.), then you’ll hit this limit.
What font(s) were causing this?
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Paul, I’ve been using Caxton for 2 fonts only. No problems at all on HTML4 Transitional. MAX asked me WHY I was still using ancient old HTML4 when glorious HTML5 is available in Freeway. So I conducted a test by switching to HTML5. That’s it. That’s the only change I made. Then Caxton coughed.
My two web fonts are small English fonts – nothing special.
From my end, it just looks like Caxton doesn’t like HTML5 pages. Again, it works fine on HTML4.
–James W.
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