Freeway 7

Andries Kuipers - 3 Jul 2014, 7:39 am
660Mb in 30 seconds…frustrating? It should give me the right sense of feeling that I am importing a huge amount of data. I can hardly brush my teeth in that amount of time ;-).

Oh you’re right, probably I exaggerated a bit… I just wanted to report that my freeway document is much less responsive with 6.1.2 compared to 5.5.x. This can be noticed at both load-time and editing-time, especially for long pages.

Yes the document is very large, with 330 pages and tons of images… and it continues to grow month by month. However, I think Freeway Pro is a great software and I will never abandon it!


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I know that “undo’s” are an old request and maybe we will see it coming in one of the new versions. I need it also.
What I do to avoid loosing some of the old tries is creating a new document after each major (or minor) change, so I have diferent versions, Dance Floor #1_06/30/2014, Dance Floor #2_07/05/2014, etc. It allows me to go back, revise, or copy and paste elements of the older website into the current one…
Not to complicated and it does not take that much space. Plus you have all the trials up to the final loaded site. It might serve also to show your client that the website was “custom made” and not created on a WorldPress template in 3 hours…
Freeway Pro is great and we should thank those guys that work on it to bring it up to date. After so many years, they are still in business and continue to develop and update the software at a minimum cost to us.
And I say minimum, considering and comparing what a client is being charged for designing a website versus the cost of Freeway Pro.

So, Thank you people at Softpress for your effort and dedication.

DD


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I did a proof-of-concept test several months back using version control w/ FW as a possible alternative to the lack of multiple undos http://www.freewaytalk.net/thread/view/138158#m_138650. It’s not a perfect solution but in my tests it worked (color me more than a little shocked) and it makes for a more robust and larger safety net than an undo. I bet if some of the bright minds on this list (inc. SP) were inclined to do so they could further refine my efforts with Actions and make the process even better/smoother.

I seriously doubt multiple undos are going to happen anytime soon so for those of you who are absolutely put-out by the current undo situation and are willing to take a walk on the geek-side you have a potential - if not perfect - modern alternative.

Todd

I know that “undo’s” are an old request


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And there’s also Time Machine, already in your menu bar in Mac OS X. If the only thing that has changed on your Mac from one minute to the next, selecting Back Up Now should not put you out longer than it takes to toddle downstairs for a fresh cup of whatever inspires you. These “delta” backups are really tiny, and you can navigate them chronologically. It’s not as perfect as multiple undos would be, but it’s better than re-doing your work.

Walter

On Jul 6, 2014, at 5:23 PM, Todd wrote:

I did a proof-of-concept test several months back using version control w/ FW as a possible alternative to the lack of multiple undos http://www.freewaytalk.net/thread/view/138158#m_138650. It’s not a perfect solution but in my tests it worked (color me more than a little shocked) and it makes for a more robust and larger safety net than an undo. I bet if some of the bright minds on this list (inc. SP) were inclined to do so they could further refine my efforts with Actions and make the process even better/smoother.

I seriously doubt multiple undos are going to happen anytime soon so for those of you who are absolutely put-out by the current undo situation and are willing to take a walk on the geek-side you have a potential - if not perfect - modern alternative.

Todd
http://xiiro.com

I know that “undo’s” are an old request


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My tried and true method is simply to never make mistakes. It requires
Perception Shifting level 5 and the ability to say “I meant to do that!”


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On 6 Jul 2014, 11:58 pm, The Big Erns wrote:

My tried and true method is simply to never make mistakes. It requires
Perception Shifting level 5 and the ability to say “I meant to do that!”

… so true - this is a man speaking who works with plan and strategy. Not just starting by cmd-N is part of my multiple undos as well. Followed by proper Font-sytles (body, p, h…) instead of inspector fiddlings is about 5 undos worth. And I’ll go on this way even with 99 undos available - cause I call it fronted-developing.

But it should be noted as well, that a modern app could (or even should) have it by default. It would stop a couple of discussions (and save hours of typing comments).

Marginal notes to the already written above:

The described workflow with prototyping and reloading it into an alternative app for final touches is honestly ridiculous - but we are a free world, anyone can do whatever he meant to do - good luck.

The “multiple items” selection opportunity is cool. I could even think of “inserting multiple items on one bunch”.

Last but not least:

I’m not aware what language Freeway is based on (or initially written in). If it would be dead easy to quick import it in xCode, make some small adjustments to the code and right after that, simply “Save as …” shiny new cocoa objective-c based blah-blah, … well I’m sure the towers already did it (even without our decent tipps).

I have a personal Top 10 (or 20) of features I’d like to see in Freeway. I even started to create the UI (just for fun) but I haven’t found the correct place to share it with you experts - but would love to do … for the towers, not against them. Let’s call it “Progressive Enrichment”.

Cheers

Thomas


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I fully agree Dan. Even full support after many years won’t lower my
bankaccount.
Op 6 jul. 2014 22:40 schreef “Dan Demetriad” email@hidden:

I know that “undo’s” are an old request and maybe we will see it coming in
one of the new versions. I need it also.
What I do to avoid loosing some of the old tries is creating a new
document after each major (or minor) change, so I have diferent versions,
Dance Floor #1_06/30/2014, Dance Floor #2_07/05/2014, etc. It allows me to
go back, revise, or copy and paste elements of the older website into the
current one…
Not to complicated and it does not take that much space. Plus you have all
the trials up to the final loaded site. It might serve also to show your
client that the website was “custom made” and not created on a WorldPress
template in 3 hours…
Freeway Pro is great and we should thank those guys that work on it to
bring it up to date. After so many years, they are still in business and
continue to develop and update the software at a minimum cost to us.
And I say minimum, considering and comparing what a client is being
charged for designing a website versus the cost of Freeway Pro.

So, Thank you people at Softpress for your effort and dedication.

DD


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I would also like to add that the new update may not have multiple undos (maybe one day!) but it is free.


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I would imagine that it will only be free for recent purchasers of 6. For most I would think there will be a charge.

On 7 Jul 2014, 8:30 am, Noel Sergeant wrote:

I would also like to add that the new update may not have multiple undos (maybe one day!) but it is free.


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MarkSmith wrote:

I would imagine that it will only be free for recent purchasers of 6. For most I would think there will be a charge.

Yep, this is correct. Like web designers, software developers have got to eat too.

Joe


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Indeed, this is a major upgrade (non update) and will be charged. And thats
correct with such huge amount of labour and improvements form Softpress.
And the price of an upgrade is mostly not more expensive than a 4-run diner
for two with your beloved one… :wink:

2014-07-07 10:40 GMT+02:00 MarkSmith email@hidden:

I would imagine that it will only be free for recent purchasers of 6. For
most I would think there will be a charge.

On 7 Jul 2014, 8:30 am, Noel Sergeant wrote:

I would also like to add that the new update may not have multiple undos
(maybe one day!) but it is free.


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Apologies. I read the email wrong, only recent purchasers of 6 will get free upgrade. I want the moon then! Any rough idea when it may be out?


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inside information told me halfway this month… but thats not stated by
Softpress.
Op 7 jul. 2014 11:12 schreef “Noel Sergeant” email@hidden:

Apologies. I read the email wrong, only recent purchasers of 6 will get
free upgrade. I want the moon then! Any rough idea when it may be out?


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C++, C, and Objective C are all equal peers in the Xcode universe. Freeway is written in C++, and yes, you can import C++ code into an Xcode project and do things with it. Even scripting languages like Ruby, Lua, and JavaScript can coexist with other “long pants” languages in the same project, through a bridge system that’s baked into Mac OS X. All that is trivial, as you suspected.

But nobody (nobody in their right mind) writes an application from only C (in any of the flavors) alone. If I said ALL programs are written with a framework, I probably would not be over-reaching. Frameworks keep you from needing to do things like write your own clipboard handling code, or your own file-writing code, or your own library parsing code, or countless thousands of other base-level things that an application must do.

Freeway is built with MacApp, which was originated in the '80s by Apple, and sunsetted years ago during the great migration from Carbon to Cocoa. (Carbon and Cocoa are also frameworks – frameworks of APIs that allow user-level programs to talk to the system and through the system, to the hardware.) In modern Mac OS X, MacApp talks to Carbon, which talks to the OS and the hardware.

That Softpress have managed to keep their investment in MacApp going all these years is a testament to their skill as engineers, and also to a certain stubbornness. It is easy in hindsight to say that had they jumped on the Cocoa bandwagon when it first came up the lane, Softpress today would have all the modern conveniences to deploy on our behalf. But that ignores the fact that had they done that, there would have been no Freeway for a large chunk of time, and when they first launched the product of that learning experience, it probably would not have done the same things that Freeway of the same time did, and Freeway currently does.

All frameworks encourage a certain mental model in the projects that use them. In the Web programming framework that I use (Ruby on Rails) this is spoken of as being “opinionated”. There is a “right” way to do things, a “correct” place to put certain objects, and a “proper” way for those objects to communicate with one another. C++ and Objective C are different enough to make this opinion clear, but Cocoa and Carbon are worlds apart conceptually and practically. It’s not enough to just use another framework with your existing code, you also need to re-think how you do things, and possibly throw away working features because they cut across the grain of your framework.

Ultimately, the decision of what direction to take with Freeway development has always rested with the Managing Director, and is flavored by the economic realities of Softpress as much as the technical aspirations of Freeway. When Cocoa was first announced, a brilliant high school student who was interning at Softpress looked it over, declared it to be the future, and set about trying to convince the Powers That Be that it should form the base for all future development. However, looking back, had Softpress embraced the infectious enthusiasm of youth and gone that way, they would have been ignoring the painful realities of how badly Softpress had been burned in the past by Apple – by being “Steved” with QuickDraw GX – when they chose to hitch their wagons to the next “insanely great” star out of Cupertino. I agreed with Finlay at the time, but I can also see with the many years’ perspective that Richard Logan took the only sane course open to him at the time.

We can all play “what if” here, and frankly, if it was so easy, and the market opportunity was so great, some pair of 20-somethings in their loft would have spun up the Cocoa equivalent of Freeway long ago, and built the ecosystem that sustains Softpress today. And eaten Freeway’s lunch. Plainly, that has failed to happen.

Apple set the example here – you should not let someone else make you obsolete, you should do that yourself by making something better. Here’s to hoping that Exhibeo (which is written in Cocoa) has been a valuable learning experience for Softpress, and that they have some new ideas to take the Web by storm.

Walter

On Jul 7, 2014, at 3:14 AM, Thomas Kimmich wrote:

I’m not aware what language Freeway is based on (or initially written in). If it would be dead easy to quick import it in xCode, make some small adjustments to the code and right after that, simply “Save as …” shiny new cocoa objective-c based blah-blah, … well I’m sure the towers already did it (even without our decent tipps).


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Thanks for this mindclearing column Walter !

2014-07-07 14:48 GMT+02:00 Walter Lee Davis email@hidden:

C++, C, and Objective C are all equal peers in the Xcode universe. Freeway
is written in C++, and yes, you can import C++ code into an Xcode project
and do things with it. Even scripting languages like Ruby, Lua, and
JavaScript can coexist with other “long pants” languages in the same
project, through a bridge system that’s baked into Mac OS X. All that is
trivial, as you suspected.

But nobody (nobody in their right mind) writes an application from only C
(in any of the flavors) alone. If I said ALL programs are written with a
framework, I probably would not be over-reaching. Frameworks keep you from
needing to do things like write your own clipboard handling code, or your
own file-writing code, or your own library parsing code, or countless
thousands of other base-level things that an application must do.

Freeway is built with MacApp, which was originated in the '80s by Apple,
and sunsetted years ago during the great migration from Carbon to Cocoa.
(Carbon and Cocoa are also frameworks – frameworks of APIs that allow
user-level programs to talk to the system and through the system, to the
hardware.) In modern Mac OS X, MacApp talks to Carbon, which talks to the
OS and the hardware.

That Softpress have managed to keep their investment in MacApp going all
these years is a testament to their skill as engineers, and also to a
certain stubbornness. It is easy in hindsight to say that had they jumped
on the Cocoa bandwagon when it first came up the lane, Softpress today
would have all the modern conveniences to deploy on our behalf. But that
ignores the fact that had they done that, there would have been no Freeway
for a large chunk of time, and when they first launched the product of that
learning experience, it probably would not have done the same things that
Freeway of the same time did, and Freeway currently does.

All frameworks encourage a certain mental model in the projects that use
them. In the Web programming framework that I use (Ruby on Rails) this is
spoken of as being “opinionated”. There is a “right” way to do things, a
“correct” place to put certain objects, and a “proper” way for those
objects to communicate with one another. C++ and Objective C are different
enough to make this opinion clear, but Cocoa and Carbon are worlds apart
conceptually and practically. It’s not enough to just use another framework
with your existing code, you also need to re-think how you do things, and
possibly throw away working features because they cut across the grain of
your framework.

Ultimately, the decision of what direction to take with Freeway
development has always rested with the Managing Director, and is flavored
by the economic realities of Softpress as much as the technical aspirations
of Freeway. When Cocoa was first announced, a brilliant high school student
who was interning at Softpress looked it over, declared it to be the
future, and set about trying to convince the Powers That Be that it should
form the base for all future development. However, looking back, had
Softpress embraced the infectious enthusiasm of youth and gone that way,
they would have been ignoring the painful realities of how badly Softpress
had been burned in the past by Apple – by being “Steved” with QuickDraw GX
– when they chose to hitch their wagons to the next “insanely great” star
out of Cupertino. I agreed with Finlay at the time, but I can also see with
the many years’ perspective that Richard Logan took the only sane course
open to him at the time.

We can all play “what if” here, and frankly, if it was so easy, and the
market opportunity was so great, some pair of 20-somethings in their loft
would have spun up the Cocoa equivalent of Freeway long ago, and built the
ecosystem that sustains Softpress today. And eaten Freeway’s lunch.
Plainly, that has failed to happen.

Apple set the example here – you should not let someone else make you
obsolete, you should do that yourself by making something better. Here’s to
hoping that Exhibeo (which is written in Cocoa) has been a valuable
learning experience for Softpress, and that they have some new ideas to
take the Web by storm.

Walter

On Jul 7, 2014, at 3:14 AM, Thomas Kimmich wrote:

I’m not aware what language Freeway is based on (or initially written
in). If it would be dead easy to quick import it in xCode, make some small
adjustments to the code and right after that, simply “Save as …” shiny
new cocoa objective-c based blah-blah, … well I’m sure the towers already
did it (even without our decent tipps).


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For those who miss their multiple undo’s and often forget to save their files… ForeverSave 2 - Overview


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Awesome journey through the rough waves of time, Walter. So I think I give up creating my own app. This is just because I’m dumb - and would take me, let’s say 30 years and 5 days.

However - I’m pro Freeway and ever was (and probably ever will) cause I found an acceptable and reasonable way to use the app “as it is” - a great tool for developing for the web (which is different to WebDesign) - even responsive, using CMS without pulling my hair cause of one undo - just a matter of attitude.

And although I do not need it for pure WYSIWYG purposes anymore, I’m so happy to have an easy to use weapon, keeping my MarkUp key visual together.

All I do is to chase rainbows to make even my external code-editor obsolete (cause it’s already inbuilt) and some lil tricky things more.

But with my other 9 ideas (“the what if”) included, it would to shake the WebDev to the very foundations :slight_smile:

Cheers

Thomas


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I’d still like to be able to select a number of items at once and apply an action… just thought I’d get they in again… would be a massive timesaver


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Many moons ago I worked with a company here in the UK called The Last Word on a set of Xtensions for QuarkXPress that were then called ItemStyles. The Xtensions were later sold on to Quark themselves who added to them and renamed the package XPert Tools Pro. I mention this because ItemStyles would allow you to define a reusable ‘style’ based on any property of an object on the page; the border, the background colour, the item rotation, etc. You would simply click on an item and use it to set a style that you could apply to anything else in the site.

Now imagine if you could add border styles, transformations, or Action settings (to name a few) via the Edit > Styles dialog and apply (or edit) these on a mass scale. It would allow you to easily add or update item settings very, very easily without having to manually track down each item and update them one by one.
Regards,
Tim.

On 8 Jul 2014, at 14:11, Kevin McElligott wrote:

I’d still like to be able to select a number of items at once and apply an action… just thought I’d get they in again… would be a massive timesaver


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Is that a hint of things to come?
:slight_smile:

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 8, 2014, at 10:11 AM, Tim Plumb email@hidden wrote:

Many moons ago I worked with a company here in the UK called The Last Word on a set of Xtensions for QuarkXPress that were then called ItemStyles. The Xtensions were later sold on to Quark themselves who added to them and renamed the package XPert Tools Pro. I mention this because ItemStyles would allow you to define a reusable ‘style’ based on any property of an object on the page; the border, the background colour, the item rotation, etc. You would simply click on an item and use it to set a style that you could apply to anything else in the site.

Now imagine if you could add border styles, transformations, or Action settings (to name a few) via the Edit > Styles dialog and apply (or edit) these on a mass scale. It would allow you to easily add or update item settings very, very easily without having to manually track down each item and update them one by one.
Regards,
Tim.

On 8 Jul 2014, at 14:11, Kevin McElligott wrote:

I’d still like to be able to select a number of items at once and apply an action… just thought I’d get they in again… would be a massive timesaver


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