FW issues with macOs Sierra

Jeremy,

Thank you very much for your continued input.

What specifically should I, or any other Freeway user, say to Apple (in the form of a bug report or feedback) that would be productive at this stage in getting them to act on addressing the issues in their “Carbon APIs for file dialogs”? Should we simply tell Apple, “SoftPress is not responsible for Apple’s Carbon APIs and therefore it is indeed an Apple problem”?

Best,

James Wages


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On 7 Oct 2016, 10:26 am, Jeremy Hughes wrote:

Whether there are future bug-fixes to Freeway is not for Apple to decide. I don’t rule it out, personally.

I also wonder whether they’re not making a convenient excuse. Freeway uses standard Carbon APIs for file dialogs. I didn’t write this code, but I looked at it the last time there were problems (during El Capitan betas) and I couldn’t see anything obviously wrong. On that occasion, Apple fixed the problems - so it was clearly an Apple issue rather than a Softpress issue.

Jeremy

Jeremy, it’s all very weird. As we have discussed before, I did not experience any issues with any El Cap betas and FW. Only Sierra has caused me any problems and they have been there since beta 1.

If this is related to Carbon apps - and we’re not actually sure if that is the case - then do you have an example of another app that is showing the same issue?


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Hi James,

On 7 Oct 2016, at 11:33, JDW email@hidden wrote:

Thank you very much for your continued input.

What specifically should I, or any other Freeway user, say to Apple (in the form of a bug report or feedback) that would be productive at this stage in getting them to act on addressing the issues in their “Carbon APIs for file dialogs”? Should we simply tell Apple, “SoftPress is not responsible for Apple’s Carbon APIs and therefore it is indeed an Apple problem”?

I don’t know what you can say. The fact that Freeway uses Carbon APIs is part of the problem. Carbon isn’t completely dead yet - there are other Carbon applications out there, such as BBEdit and TextWrangler - but it’s not something that Apple cares about.

Carbon and Cocoa were originally supposed to be equal citizens in OS X, but some years ago Apple decided that everyone should be using Cocoa instead of Carbon. Rewriting a large Carbon application in Cocoa is a major undertaking, and it’s one of the things that Softpress struggled with. Adobe managed it with Photoshop etc., but Adobe have vastly more financial resources.

The reason that file dialogs are a problem is that a few years ago Apple decided to replace Carbon file dialogs with Cocoa file dialogs - the idea being that the Carbon APIs would eventually call through to Cocoa APIs (probably including private APIs). What seems to have happened as a result is that when the Cocoa file-dialog code gets changed in new system releases, nobody at Apple bothers to check that they haven’t broken the Carbon interfaces to this code.

Jeremy


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Just tried BBEdit and TextWrangler. Hard to say if there is a problem there or not as opening any folder in File>Open just adds the folder to the app window and moves away from the standard OS file manager.


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On 7 Oct 2016, at 11:36, Iain Mackenzie email@hidden wrote:

Jeremy, it’s all very weird. As we have discussed before, I did not experience any issues with any El Cap betas and FW. Only Sierra has caused me any problems and they have been there since beta 1.

Well, it also seems that not everyone is experiencing the same issues in Sierra.

If this is related to Carbon apps - and we’re not actually sure if that is the case - then do you have an example of another app that is showing the same issue?

Some of the issues that you have reported affect custom items that are added to the file dialogs using Carbon APIs - so they won’t affect other Carbon applications that are not adding custom items. I’m not using Sierra, but when I looked at these issues in El Capitan betas the Carbon applications I looked at were TextWrangler and PowerMail, and they weren’t adding custom items in their file-open dialogs.

If you have BBEdit, that is another example of a Carbon application that you could look it.

Jeremy


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I grew weary of waiting for everyone else to update to Sierra and test so I installed Sierra (latest version as of today) on an external HDD and tested. Here’s my screencast with no sound, showing the problems in the lower left corner of the Save As and Import dialogs:

Stretching the Import Dialog horizontally brings the hidden text into view. But there is no simple fix for the missing text in the Save As dialog.

And although I had my 5K iMac’s display set to 1920x1080 to make that video, I changed it back to the 5K default and tested again to see the exact same problems in those two dialogs. I didn’t see any other major problems though.

I hope this helps others,

James Wages


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James, very helpful. Please let us know if you do encounter any other issues.

Am I correct that this isn’t a problem on non-retina Macs?


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Thanks for that James, that shows the issue 2) I reported on in the first post and that we’ve been discussing here.

Not sure if it gets us anywhere though!

Are you using the Magic Trackpad 2?


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Thanks James W. The video taught me two things about the file/image
import issue (and thus,

  1. I have a workaround suggestion for the file import issue …
  2. The bug is, to a certain degreee, present in OSX El Capitan too.

The El Capitan bug first:

Viewing the video, my first thought was to suggest that you probably
could work around the problem by using keyboard navigation rather than
the mouse.

That is (taking the Import Graphich dialog as example): If you first
enable Full Keyboard Access in the Keyboard preferences of the System
panel of OSX/macOS, you ought to become able to perform all the actions
(that the dialog window allows you to perform) via the keyboard.

For instance: Having selected the graphic to be imported, you can press
the Tab/Tabulator key in order to jump to Pass-through. And if, having
jumped ot Pass-through, you want to activate “pass-through”, you ought
to be be able to do so by pressing the Spacebar key.

However, it did not work, at least not in El Capitan (you could try if
it works in macOS). Firstly, when I press the Tabulator key, then
(and this is just like in your videow) a new check box pops up, above
the Pass-through check box. This new check box sometimes appears
nameless, but in certain cases/positions, it is evident that it is
called «Show preview». At any rate: this new checkbox is impossible to
activate whether via mouse or keyboard.

Secondly, when trying to activate a selected checkbox by way of
pressing the Spacebar, then nothing happens. And there are also other
aspects of keyboard navigation for the image import dialog window that
is buggy (such as the fact that is is impossible, via the keyboard, to
select and change the Alt text - when I try that, the keyboard focus is
instead moved to the list of files - and I may end up selecting another
graphic file).

Fortunately, in El Capitan one can still use the mouse. And so, from
that angle there is no bug.

Conclusion: In El Capitan, using the mouse is, if you will, the
workaround for this bug.

A Possible Workaround:

Your video demonstrates that you always left your import dialog in the
same state. We can say that you always left the dialog in its default
state.

What do I mean by that? Well, you never pressed any of the buttons at
the top bar of the window: You did not touch the button consisting of 3
“sub buttons” by which you can can choose to display the files as
Icons, or as in a List, or as in Columns. Also, you did not touch the
Arrange button to the right of the 3 state button.

Let me then immediately say that if you select “Columns”, then you get
an obligatory preview of the graphic, so to speak, for free. So in
that position, the “Show preview” button is - I presume - useless, and
perhaps this is part of why this works better:

At least, on my Retina based El Capitaton running mac, once I do select
the “Columns” button, then it then becomes possible to use keyboard
navigation. Actually, there is still a bug - pressing the Spacebar key
does not have the effect of toggelling the the enabled/disabled status
of the Pass-through checkbox. But at the very least, when - by way of
the Tabulator key - activating/selecting the Alt text field, I am able
to edit the Alt text.

(By contrast, when I leave the dialogue window in its default state,
then, tabulating to the Alt text field and trying to edit it, I am not
allowed to edit - instead, as I type, the letters I type causes a file,
beginning with the letter that I type, i selected in the file list. The
only workaround is if there is only a single file in the folder where I
try to import the file from.)

Btw, clicking the the Arrange button an, for example, selecting to
arrange, e.g. according to Kind, does seem to have same effect.

Conclusion: I suggest that you try to experiement and test whether
clicking the 3-state-button and the Arrange button might have positive
effects.

Leif Halvard Silli

On 26 Oct 2016, at 5:16, JDW wrote:

I grew weary of waiting for everyone else to update to Sierra and test
so I installed Sierra (latest version as of today) on an external HDD
and tested. Here’s my screencast with no sound, showing the problems
in the lower left corner of the Save As and Import dialogs:

https://youtu.be/b60UCZjs8aA

Stretching the Import Dialog horizontally brings the hidden text into
view. But there is no simple fix for the missing text in the Save As
dialog.

And although I had my 5K iMac’s display set to 1920x1080 to make that
video, I changed it back to the 5K default and tested again to see the
exact same problems in those two dialogs. I didn’t see any other
major problems though.

I hope this helps others,

James Wages


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On 26 Oct 2016, at 12:52, Leif Halvard Silli wrote:

Thanks James W. The video taught me two things about the file/image
import issue (and thus,

  1. I have a workaround suggestion for the file import issue …

I meant to be more modest: I wonder if I have a workaround. Please
test.

leif halvard silli


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Friends,

I am NOT using a trackpad with my iMac.

My late 2009 iMac 27" i7 at home is not Retina and Freeway works fine. Specifically, I don’t see the nastiness on my 2009 iMac at home that I see on my 5K iMac at work. On my non-Retina iMac, the icons appear as normal in the Save As dialog, and in the Import dialog nothing is overlapping at all (just a tad discolored).

So it’s a bug inherent to Retina Macs that I can see, and like I said, changing the resolution on the Retina Mac does NOT fix the problem.

Oh, the ALT Text field is totally broken on my Retina iMac (you cannot see ALT text there as you should if it exists) and you cannot enter new text. But on my non-Retina 2009 iMac, that field works just fine.

Leif, I will try your trick tomorrow on my 5K iMac when I get into the office.

Thanks,

James Wages


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No issues here as well, running Freeway 7.1.3 on a 2012 iMac macOS Sierra.


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On 26 Oct 2016, 12:13 pm, JDW wrote:

I am NOT using a trackpad with my iMac.

I wonder if that is significant in relation to my point 1) in the original post, as you don’t seem to have that problem as per your video.


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Is anyone with a non-retina iMac using a trackpad?


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On 26 Oct 2016, at 14:13, JDW wrote:

I am NOT using a trackpad with my iMac.

[ … snip … ]

Leif, I will try your trick tomorrow on my 5K iMac when I get into the
office.

Cool! I the mean time: You made me impatient and I instaslled Sierra on
an external USB 3.0 disk.

Bug 1: The selecting-file-inside-import-dialog bug.

I do not have a trackpad, but my retina MacBook has its own built in
trackpad, if I can put it like that. And I can confirm that, when
navigating with the trackpad, then clicking on a file in the import
dialog often does not select the file. I have to either click several
times - typically 3 times. Or I have to do something that (probably)
update the dialog windower or something - such as juggeling with the
tripple button or the Arrange button. However, I myself is so used to
navigating via the keyboard (using the arrow keys, typically) that I am
believe that, had I not been told about this bug, I might not have
recognized there is a bug here, for quite a while. Another reason why I
would not have discovered this bug is that I also use a wireless Apple
mouse - and, using the mouse, there is no bug, selection works perfect
when using the mouse.

By the way: Though my MacBook has its own built trackpad, I am not able
to test the effect of using it with a non-retina monitor. I have an
external non-retina monitor, but I have to close the MacBoook in order
to disable the interal, retina screen. So I cannot give any feedback on
that. (But my wife has an older MacBook air with non retina screen - and
if I remember it correctly, then there were no problem there.)

Bug 2: Misplacement of the Pass-through checkbox (and problem
activating the Pass-through checkbox).

Allthough I have a Retina screen, I do, basically, not experience this
bug. My Retina screen is only 12 inches - may be it is related to that.

Conclusion: These problems are, in my case, very small. And I
believe I will upgrade to macOS Sierra on my internal harddisk pretty
soon. This issue will not prevent me as I am hadly going to notice it.

Leif Halvard Silli


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Okay, everyone, I’ve updated my 5K iMac’s internal 1TB SSD to Sierra and am now testing Freeway Pro 7.1.3. Unsurprisingly, everything is the same as my test (see my YouTube video in an earlier post).

I agree that pressing SPACE with a checkbox selected does not toggle. But I’ve never done that before so it’s no loss to me.

I have zero issues selecting files. I click once on a file to select it ad hit return to grab it. So easy and simple. No problem at all. So although I can choose COLUMN view, why should I? It does absolutely nothing for me.

I can use my wireless bluetooth Apple mouse to check or uncheck the checkboxes in the Import Dialog just fine. It’s just that I may need to stretch the window horizontally to bring them into view. I showed that in my YouTube video.

In the Save As dialog, the two icons are gone, and the leftmost radio button is selected by default. So long as we can remember that is the default, I guess it’s not a big issue.

–James Wages


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On 27 Oct 2016, at 6:47, JDW wrote:

I have zero issues selecting files. I click once on a file to select
it ad hit return to grab it. So easy and simple. No problem at all.
So although I can choose COLUMN view, why should I? It does
absolutely nothing for me.

Actually, using the trackpad, I have a similar experience: On first
attempt to select a file, it works. Hence, most often it will work just
fine. It is only if I want to select another file than the one I
initially select that the trackpad requires tripple cliks or activation
of Column view or other workarounds.

leif halvard silli


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Does the recent update to 10.12.1 make any difference?

All the best

Gordon


On 27 Oct 2016, at 1:42pm, Leif Halvard Silli email@hidden wrote:

On 27 Oct 2016, at 6:47, JDW wrote:

I have zero issues selecting files. I click once on a file to select it ad hit return to grab it. So easy and simple. No problem at all. So although I can choose COLUMN view, why should I? It does absolutely nothing for me.

Actually, using the trackpad, I have a similar experience: On first attempt to select a file, it works. Hence, most often it will work just fine. It is only if I want to select another file than the one I initially select that the trackpad requires tripple cliks or activation of Column view or other workarounds.

leif halvard silli


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No, it doesn’t!


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On 20 Sep 2016, 10:46 pm, Richard van Heukelum wrote:

The decline of Freeway is devastating … just one OS release after the latest FW7 release and the house of cards collapses. It clearly shows how fragile the app really is.

Thanks to all the contributions to this important thread. I’m still using El Capitan, and when I finally install a later version of Mac OS, I will simply keep the El Capitan environment alive on an external drive, so that I can run El Capitan when the need arises.

I already had an extensive background in page make-up (PageMaker and InDesign) when I started making web sites, and I felt as if I had ‘died and go to Heaven’ when I found Freeway; especially seeing how I could tweak the code after publishing Site Folder. So to me, keeping El Capitan on hand is a small price to pay while Freeway 7.1.3 has no worthy competitor in its particular niche.

Many great softwares have required updating after OS changes, so this is no reason to ‘pan’ Freeway, i think.


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