Quite right Gary - you make a good point. Tsk…I would never call anybody a ‘Smer Heee’, except praps the entire Labour Governement.
Kryters.
Yes I got it too ! I know it isn’t easy to predict faults, I also have a few sites hosted with Dreamhost and the same has happened there so I wouldn’t be too quick to call James a ‘Smer Heee’ ( little joke for K there ! )
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Unfortunately the UK pound is very, strong, and we have UK overheads (UK offices) so there is nothing we can do about this. So compared to US pricing might appear expensive. UK users do have the benefit for being in the same time zone.
We’ve been hosting for quite a few years, and have small and large businesses using us. Continuity and reliability, is what we are giving them.
This year, we decided, to open the doors further, and offer hosting to the Freeway community and others, with packaged hosting accounts bought directly from the web site.
But saying that, what are your requirements? We do special custom accounts for local web, and software companies, then costs are dependant on needs. So contact us, and see if we can help you with a customised quote.
On 14 Dec 2007, at 11:25, Pete MacKenzie wrote:
Hello David
Here’s a general question for you about hosting pricing. It isn’t a personal criticism or anything and asked in the spirit of business curiosity
As a host yourself I wonder what determines the pricing structure for packages? Looking at your site it seems your prices are in step with other UK hosts but often much more expensive than US and other international companies. Pound for pound, or maybe gigabyte for gigabyte, the international hosts offer more. Would I be correct to say that you (along with all the other UK hosts) are responding to the local market and ignoring the competition from abroad to maintain a fairly high pricing structure? It’s just that when people come to me asking which host they should use, if they have done any trawling on the net this is one of the first questions - why are UK hosts more expensive than the US ones and, aside from hour difference issues and general flag flying, why should I bother with UK hosts?
Cue robust defence…?
David Owen
Printline Advertising ::
Freeway Friendly Web hosting and Domains ::
http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk/freeway/
Take your point re the dollar and of course overheads are an issue but the difference existed before the current low dollar. As I said, I’m not knocking you and I trust that you give a good service as advertised. Freeway friendly hosting is no doubt worth a small premium too.
I just find the figures rather intriguing. For example a UK host I deal with offers a basic package of 500mb webspace, 10gb bandwidth, no database and 10 email addresses for about £35 annually. An international host I deal with offers 50gb space, 500gb bandwidth, unlimited email addresses and all the other bells and whistles for the same price. Seems a huge disparity. The UK host has its downtime problems occasionally so I can’t say that one is buying extra reliability.
Surely the overheads are not so high as to warrant such a vast discrepancy in what is offered? The example UK host has a package at the next level for about £55. There’s £20 to cover the difference in overheads perhaps. But the package offers only 3gb webspace and 15gb bandwidth. OK their Pro level package at £120 must bring parity, one would think? Sadly, not. 8gb space and 50gb bandwidth. Now the difference looks ridiculous. Any wonder that UK companies see customers looking abroad.
Some cynics might argue that there is a cartel at work here but more likely it is just the usual UK malaise that affects all industry here where companies price to the maximum that the market will bear (which, in typical stoic, long-suffering Brit mode, is a lot). It then becomes Catch 22 where no company will buck the trend - one doesn’t want to look cheap because after all you get what you pay for, don’t you, so one better be expensive with everybody else.
Cheers
Pete
On 14 Dec 2007, at 12:31, David Owen wrote:
Unfortunately the UK pound is very, strong, and we have UK overheads (UK offices) so there is nothing we can do about this. So compared to US pricing might appear expensive. UK users do have the benefit for being in the same time zone.
We’ve been hosting for quite a few years, and have small and large businesses using us. Continuity and reliability, is what we are giving them.
This year, we decided, to open the doors further, and offer hosting to the Freeway community and others, with packaged hosting accounts bought directly from the web site.
But saying that, what are your requirements? We do special custom accounts for local web, and software companies, then costs are dependant on needs. So contact us, and see if we can help you with a customised quote.
On 14 Dec 2007, at 11:25, Pete MacKenzie wrote:
Hello David
Here’s a general question for you about hosting pricing. It isn’t a personal criticism or anything and asked in the spirit of business curiosity
As a host yourself I wonder what determines the pricing structure for packages? Looking at your site it seems your prices are in step with other UK hosts but often much more expensive than US and other international companies. Pound for pound, or maybe gigabyte for gigabyte, the international hosts offer more. Would I be correct to say that you (along with all the other UK hosts) are responding to the local market and ignoring the competition from abroad to maintain a fairly high pricing structure? It’s just that when people come to me asking which host they should use, if they have done any trawling on the net this is one of the first questions - why are UK hosts more expensive than the US ones and, aside from hour difference issues and general flag flying, why should I bother with UK hosts?
Cue robust defence…?
David Owen
Printline Advertising ::
Freeway Friendly Web hosting and Domains ::
http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk/freeway/
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Have Host have never had issues like this. I’m sure this is driving James crazy.
I suspect the poor format of the email was due to it being sent through a support form or something like that, which stripped out the returns. At least, that’s my guess.
From what James described in that email, it looks that the new server will be MUCH better than the current one, with redundancy of data instead of just backup, allowing them to switch drives instantly if one goes down.
I would not be surprised if, once he gets this all sorted out, he sets up a system whereby announcements can be made via a different server. Also, when you log into your site with cPanel, it should have prompted you to update your contact information. When you go to that page, you’ll notice that it says, “Email address that you can be contacted at. This should be an email address that is not on your account if you have one.” Make sure Have Host have an alternate email address for you for cases like these.
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I have no idea why my third paragraph in my previous message looks like it was quoted.
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There’s also the distinct possibility that somebody is not being
completely forthcoming about what you get for your money. Maybe the
international servers are more over-sold than the UK ones. You have
no way to tell pre- or post-purchase, unless you know someone on the
inside in both instances. And even then, it can vary from month to
month or day to day.
Hosting is in many ways a black art, and a black box. You can get a
good sense for who’s telling the truth by asking around, asking
others in your area and particular niche of business who they would
recommend.
It’s also completely up to what you need from a host. I have had
exceptional service from some hosts, at a price. I have had dirt-
cheap prices from some hosts, but please – don’t ever need anything
at all from support, not if you value your hair.
Walter
On Dec 14, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Pete MacKenzie wrote:
Take your point re the dollar and of course overheads are an issue
but the difference existed before the current low dollar. As I
said, I’m not knocking you and I trust that you give a good service
as advertised. Freeway friendly hosting is no doubt worth a small
premium too.I just find the figures rather intriguing. For example a UK host I
deal with offers a basic package of 500mb webspace, 10gb bandwidth,
no database and 10 email addresses for about £35 annually. An
international host I deal with offers 50gb space, 500gb bandwidth,
unlimited email addresses and all the other bells and whistles for
the same price. Seems a huge disparity. The UK host has its
downtime problems occasionally so I can’t say that one is buying
extra reliability.Surely the overheads are not so high as to warrant such a vast
discrepancy in what is offered? The example UK host has a package
at the next level for about £55. There’s £20 to cover the
difference in overheads perhaps. But the package offers only 3gb
webspace and 15gb bandwidth. OK their Pro level package at £120
must bring parity, one would think? Sadly, not. 8gb space and 50gb
bandwidth. Now the difference looks ridiculous. Any wonder that UK
companies see customers looking abroad.Some cynics might argue that there is a cartel at work here but
more likely it is just the usual UK malaise that affects all
industry here where companies price to the maximum that the market
will bear (which, in typical stoic, long-suffering Brit mode, is a
lot). It then becomes Catch 22 where no company will buck the trend
- one doesn’t want to look cheap because after all you get what you
pay for, don’t you, so one better be expensive with everybody else.Cheers
PeteOn 14 Dec 2007, at 12:31, David Owen wrote:
Unfortunately the UK pound is very, strong, and we have UK
overheads (UK offices) so there is nothing we can do about this.
So compared to US pricing might appear expensive. UK users do have
the benefit for being in the same time zone.We’ve been hosting for quite a few years, and have small and large
businesses using us. Continuity and reliability, is what we are
giving them.This year, we decided, to open the doors further, and offer
hosting to the Freeway community and others, with packaged hosting
accounts bought directly from the web site.But saying that, what are your requirements? We do special custom
accounts for local web, and software companies, then costs are
dependant on needs. So contact us, and see if we can help you with
a customised quote.On 14 Dec 2007, at 11:25, Pete MacKenzie wrote:
Hello David
Here’s a general question for you about hosting pricing. It isn’t
a personal criticism or anything and asked in the spirit of
business curiosityAs a host yourself I wonder what determines the pricing structure
for packages? Looking at your site it seems your prices are in
step with other UK hosts but often much more expensive than US
and other international companies. Pound for pound, or maybe
gigabyte for gigabyte, the international hosts offer more. Would
I be correct to say that you (along with all the other UK hosts)
are responding to the local market and ignoring the competition
from abroad to maintain a fairly high pricing structure? It’s
just that when people come to me asking which host they should
use, if they have done any trawling on the net this is one of the
first questions - why are UK hosts more expensive than the US
ones and, aside from hour difference issues and general flag
flying, why should I bother with UK hosts?Cue robust defence…?
David Owen
Printline Advertising ::
Freeway Friendly Web hosting and Domains ::
http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk/freeway/
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I’m sticking with James and Have Host.
There are very few services that have the same levels of personal attention that Have Host displays.
I am on the west coast of the US and had issues with my sites mid morning yesterday. I wrote James expressing the same concerns about knowing in advance when the sites would be offline so I could explain to clients. The problem he’s having with the server doesn’t allow him to predict when the fault might occur hence the move to new servers.
I trust James when he tells me he’s working to solve the problem and will continue to be a loyal customer.
This is not the time to pile on or degrade his service to promote one’s own.
Bill
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Also one driving force is profit, are you buying hosting for yourself, or charging on to the client. If you’re charging on, then you might be tempted overseas to buy that $1 hosting account, and possibly regret it later.
We are committed (I’m sure James is also) to providing a robust hosting service, users can rely on.
After getting feedback from other Web designers already using our service, hosting control panels are now non-branded. i.e. you can give your clients access to them (on separate URL’s), to set up there own email accounts, access web mail etc.
Current users can contact me off forum to find out what those new URL’s are.
You can test drive a control panel here: http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk/freeway/
On 14 Dec 2007, at 11:25, Pete MacKenzie wrote:
, why should I bother with UK hosts?
David Owen
Printline Advertising ::
Freeway Friendly Web hosting and Domains ::
http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk/freeway/
I am indeed committed (as David suggests) to providing a superior hosting experience to my clients - since this is the very reason I started hosting websites in the first place. I kept getting hit by a server being oversold and access being super-slow. Ten years ago, I took the leap and set-up my own dedicated server and have been slowly upgrading the server specs ever since - plus, adding on the newest technologies as they became available:
cPanel/WHM v11 < Fully brandable out of the box for all multi-site accounts. Have Host is not seen at all since I also provide personalized nameservers for each multi-site account.
Quicktime Server
WebDAV
Ruby on Rails
RoundCube Webmail
… to name a few…
I do not actively promote or market my hosting services to those outside the Freeway community. I, of course, offer hosting to our Dzyn Lab design clients but I prefer to grow through word-of-mouth via clients that I host, and I will continue to provide excellent, hands-on, personal, customer support. (The recent debacle of running a separate knowledgebase will be solved by the next iteration of the current support system - as it will include an integrated KB!) For me, massive profits aren’t what I’m all about - as evidenced by me recently introducing multi-site accounts, because my clients wanted it. I’ve lost a lot of income by going the multi-site account direction and in fact, given one client a refund of nearly $500US since they moved from individual accounts to a multi-site account! Hosting is not my principle source of income. I offer it at a reasonable price that pays for the server and slight profit each month for my ongoing support - so anyone who uses Freeway can have a safe, non-oversold space - with all the industry-standard bells and whistles - at prices that most assuredly won’t hurt your pocket book.
Print and Web Design Services
Visit: http://www.dzynlab.com
Website Hosting Services
Visit: http://www.have-host.com
On Dec-14-07, at 10:52 AM, David Owen wrote:
Also one driving force is profit, are you buying hosting for yourself, or charging on to the client. If you’re charging on, then you might be tempted overseas to buy that $1 hosting account, and possibly regret it later.
We are committed (I’m sure James is also) to providing a robust hosting service, users can rely on.
After getting feedback from other Web designers already using our service, hosting control panels are now non-branded. i.e. you can give your clients access to them (on separate URL’s), to set up there own email accounts, access web mail etc.
Current users can contact me off forum to find out what those new URL’s are.
You can test drive a control panel here: http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk/freeway/
On 14 Dec 2007, at 11:25, Pete MacKenzie wrote:
, why should I bother with UK hosts?
David Owen
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Agreed, and I have spent time researching to get to my own
conclusions and am happy about who/what suits my requirements. Still
doesn’t explain the wide disparity between the UK and other areas of
the world.
Cheers
Pete
On 14 Dec 2007, at 15:39, Walter Lee Davis wrote:
You can get a
good sense for who’s telling the truth by asking around, asking
others in your area and particular niche of business who they would
recommend.
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In this case (I’m speaking about UK hosting prices generally) , I really do think its more to do with the strong UK pound, bigger overheads, bigger prices, and the UK is a much smaller market than the US.
(Looking at the exchange rate its currently $2.04 to £1, if you consider that, UK prices stack up comparably) Without doubt the whole market will reduce its prices over time - but can it ever match 3rd world prices which will be cheaper again? would you buy from them to gain even better pricing? Or would the Market be better with a few Mega Huge Hosting companies selling at knock down prices but no reasonable support? Long live choice.
This is a much smaller world, Ad agencies are sourcing artwork, web design, and illustration in Asia at prices knock down prices, and sadly this will, and is, effecting both the US and UK.
Don’t get this wrong, and not wanting to be personal Peter, do you sell a service? how would you defend your UK charging fees, to a designer/illustrator in South Korea working at levels a fraction of yours. Would you be happy to be accused of profiteering. We are all buyers and sellers, it rubs both ways… Unless you’re retired - that is… Sigh, maybe one day 
On 14 Dec 2007, at 15:23, Pete MacKenzie wrote:
Some cynics might argue that there is a cartel at work here but more likely it is just the usual UK malaise that affects all industry here where companies price to the maximum that the market will bear (which, in typical stoic, long-suffering Brit mode, is a lot). It then becomes Catch 22 where no company will buck the trend - one doesn’t want to look cheap because after all you get what you pay for, don’t you, so one better be expensive with everybody else.
David Owen
Printline Advertising ::
Freeway Friendly Web hosting and Domains ::
http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk/freeway/
Long live choice. Hear, hear.
I hear what you say about the UK too but the web has no frontiers and sourcing services can work both ways. Personally I’m wary about Far Eastern companies purely from a language viewpoint - It’s tough enough communicating with one’s own compatriots at a technical level never mind the distortions that international language translations can introduce. Witness the frustration with Indian call centres. Nice people on the line but when things get tricky the cultural differences inevitably intrude. So in that sense the market may be self-regulating.
Re selling on - no, I don’t. I’ve worked in the construction industry in the past and have always felt uncomfortable about the 10% markup on materials which could net me more profit but also makes me less competetive. Also seems like exploiting the customers who have approached me for my skills with my hands, not with the % button on the calculator. Similarly with the design work, and this is probably naive and I probably won’t be a rich man, but I’m happy to create the sites and let the hosting and admin of the hosting pass to the client. OK, I charge a bit of labour for the setting up etc, so they don’t get the deal entirely free, but ultimately they will be renewing the package and the true cost will out then, so i prefer to be transparent re the costs. In fact, that whole issue was what triggered my initial query.
Retirement… what’s that? 
Cheers
Pete
On 14 Dec 2007, at 16:47, David Owen wrote:
In this case (I’m speaking about UK hosting prices generally) , I really do think its more to do with the strong UK pound, bigger overheads, bigger prices, and the UK is a much smaller market than the US.
(Looking at the exchange rate its currently $2.04 to £1, if you consider that, UK prices stack up comparably) Without doubt the whole market will reduce its prices over time - but can it ever match 3rd world prices which will be cheaper again? would you buy from them to gain even better pricing? Or would the Market be better with a few Mega Huge Hosting companies selling at knock down prices but no reasonable support? Long live choice.
This is a much smaller world, Ad agencies are sourcing artwork, web design, and illustration in Asia at prices knock down prices, and sadly this will, and is, effecting both the US and UK.
Don’t get this wrong, and not wanting to be personal Peter, do you sell a service? how would you defend your UK charging fees, to a designer/illustrator in South Korea working at levels a fraction of yours. Would you be happy to be accused of profiteering. We are all buyers and sellers, it rubs both ways… Unless you’re retired - that is… Sigh, maybe one day
On 14 Dec 2007, at 15:23, Pete MacKenzie wrote:
Some cynics might argue that there is a cartel at work here but more likely it is just the usual UK malaise that affects all industry here where companies price to the maximum that the market will bear (which, in typical stoic, long-suffering Brit mode, is a lot). It then becomes Catch 22 where no company will buck the trend - one doesn’t want to look cheap because after all you get what you pay for, don’t you, so one better be expensive with everybody else.
David Owen
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From my research, what’s happening, is that the UK internet market is coming into its own as its growth projections for internet users are twice that of the US and Canada - where the rate is half that of the UK. Market indicators suggest (and I can most assuredly attest to this through personal experience) that the US and Canada have already gone through the hurly burly of market-driven pricing and option levels - and have settled down to what can be considered as “industry-standard” levels - I would hardly call them “3rd World Levels”.
The reason more and more companies are hosting with companies in the US are in my opinion:
(Of note, Canada is already changing over from cable-modem / adsl hi-speed access, to fibre-optic-direct connections to the actual internet backbone for household consumer users, where the speed for normal hi-speed is averaging 20mb/sec to proposed levels of 40gb/sec - yes, gigabits - within the next 5 years.)
So, while UKer’s have traditionally been satisfied with their local service providers, their eyes have begun to open up to the possibilities of the outside world and the savings that can be easily had in a global market. Things typically get done much quicker in the US and Canada (not to mention as individuals you’re also expected to work faster and more cheaply) as companies are continuously looking to reduce overhead and increase the bottom line. The UK (and Europe) is from our viewpoint, dragging its feet, but it’s also faced with a hugely expensive currency and a very old infrastructure that is costly to update to acceptable standards - which by the time things get done, they’ll be behind again… The US and Canada are new and it is much easier to upgrade the infrastructure… Which is why wireless access is progressing exponentially faster in Europe than in the US and Canada! A whole other story…
I personally do not feel that I am offering “3rd World Levels” of hosting because I am priced to what is considered average for my regional market. Also, my support is in my opinion, first-class.
I’ve already gone through the adjustments for market-pricing that Europeans have yet to face for design, etc. - and with that, I welcome all new potential hosting and design clients (UK or otherwise) looking to increase their bottom line while gaining excellent pricing, fantastic services and first-class support.
Print and Web Design Services
Visit: http://www.dzynlab.com
Website Hosting Services
Visit: http://www.have-host.com
On Dec-14-07, at 11:47 AM, David Owen wrote:
In this case (I’m speaking about UK hosting prices generally) , I really do think its more to do with the strong UK pound, bigger overheads, bigger prices, and the UK is a much smaller market than the US.
(Looking at the exchange rate its currently $2.04 to £1, if you consider that, UK prices stack up comparably) Without doubt the whole market will reduce its prices over time - but can it ever match 3rd world prices which will be cheaper again? would you buy from them to gain even better pricing? Or would the Market be better with a few Mega Huge Hosting companies selling at knock down prices but no reasonable support? Long live choice.
This is a much smaller world, Ad agencies are sourcing artwork, web design, and illustration in Asia at prices knock down prices, and sadly this will, and is, effecting both the US and UK.
Don’t get this wrong, and not wanting to be personal Peter, do you sell a service? how would you defend your UK charging fees, to a designer/illustrator in South Korea working at levels a fraction of yours. Would you be happy to be accused of profiteering. We are all buyers and sellers, it rubs both ways… Unless you’re retired - that is… Sigh, maybe one day
On 14 Dec 2007, at 15:23, Pete MacKenzie wrote:
Some cynics might argue that there is a cartel at work here but more likely it is just the usual UK malaise that affects all industry here where companies price to the maximum that the market will bear (which, in typical stoic, long-suffering Brit mode, is a lot). It then becomes Catch 22 where no company will buck the trend - one doesn’t want to look cheap because after all you get what you pay for, don’t you, so one better be expensive with everybody else.
David Owen
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Just to interject briefly. This thread for me contains a lot of this: “=20” scattered throughout the threads, making it peculiar to understand. What should I be seeing?
K.
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Just gone the the forum online, I see the same.
On 14 Dec 2007, at 17:46, Kryten wrote:
Just to interject briefly. This thread for me contains a lot of this: “=20” scattered throughout the threads, making it peculiar to understand. What should I be seeing?
David Owen
Printline Advertising ::
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Got an example?
Cheers
Pete
On 14 Dec 2007, at 17:46, Kryten wrote:
Just to interject briefly. This thread for me contains a lot of
this: “=20” scattered throughout the threads, making it
peculiar to understand. What should I be seeing?K.
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Nothing. It’s a mime-encoded linebreak not being properly translated
by the forum software. I have made a note to look at this next week,
I am totally slammed right now. It’s an easy fix, but not something I
want to do in a rush.
Walter
On Dec 14, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Kryten wrote:
Just to interject briefly. This thread for me contains a lot of
this: “=20” scattered throughout the threads, making it
peculiar to understand. What should I be seeing?K.
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David, what e-mail application are you using at the moment?
I’ve spotted the problem, and it’s specific to your mail client.
Walter
On Dec 14, 2007, at 12:52 PM, David Owen wrote:
Just gone the the forum online, I see the same.
On 14 Dec 2007, at 17:46, Kryten wrote:
Just to interject briefly. This thread for me contains a lot of
this: “=20” scattered throughout the threads, making it
peculiar to understand. What should I be seeing?David Owen
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OS X Mail… Version 2.1 (752/752.2)
I’m not the bad boy am I? ;-(
On 14 Dec 2007, at 18:07, Walter Lee Davis wrote:
David, what e-mail application are you using at the moment?
David Owen
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Not at all. There’s something funny going on in the mail conversion
function. There’s a whole section of code devoted to converting these
encoded characters, and it’s not being invoked for some reason. I
tried a couple of quick hacks, but none seemed to work out. So I will
look at it in depth next week.
Walter
On Dec 14, 2007, at 1:15 PM, David Owen wrote:
OS X Mail… Version 2.1 (752/752.2)
I’m not the bad boy am I? ;-(
On 14 Dec 2007, at 18:07, Walter Lee Davis wrote:
David, what e-mail application are you using at the moment?
David Owen
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