Loaded question on a Freeway forum…

Freeway
1

I have a friend who is a SalesForce wiz that is going to hang up her own shingle as a consultant. While incredibly bright (she learns things incredibly quickly), she has no HTML or CSS experience. She would like to put up her own website.

Knowing that I use Freeway Pro, she’s asked me to show her some ropes. While not a beginner, I’m far from an expert as I would consider myself HTML & CSS “familiar,” a step or two above a beginner.

Having noted comments over the months regarding Macaw, WebFlow, and Sparkle, I would appreciate any feedback, suggestions, or advice as to what might be a suitable tool.

While I have become familiar with FWP’s quirks, I’ve noted many comments that its UI is years behind where it should be. For those of us who lean far, far more toward the desire for true WYSIWYG (read, don’t really want to touch code) I’m left wondering if FWP has been surpassed by some of the new startups.

Thanks for any and all advice,
Robert

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2

First of all, if your friend is marketing herself to Web experts to become a Web expert, she may want to do something more mainstream than Freeway. In experienced hands, Freeway writes lovely, semantic code, and besides the few hallmarks that it throws into the output, I defy anyone to pick it from a lineup on coding style alone. But there is definitely a long curve up from using Freeway quickly and using it well. Probably a similar curve to using a text editor well for the same purpose. But if your friend is intent on marketing her skills as a Salesforce guru, then I would posit that it doesn’t make any difference if she uses Freeway or Dreamweaver or any of a dozen other lower-tier WYSIWYG or template-based site building tools. Heck, she could even sign up for Squarespace and not worry about it from the standpoint of her audience. They are after her skills in an entirely different part of the value chain, and if they were hiring someone to be a Web developer pure and simple, would probably toss her résumé out of the pile for being “overqualified” anyway.

That said, here’s what I know:

Macaw is self-described as a “prototyping tool”, not something you use to build a Web site or anything besides a clickable demo. For example, the links that it makes are JavaScript fake links, nothing you would ever deploy in production. I can see its place in a traditional hand-coding workflow, because it does allow you to prototype something quickly and see it at all of its various breakpoints in one window. I’m not a big fan of the interface design, but that’s just me. It’s au courant.

WebFlow is interesting to me mostly because it runs in a browser, and that gets back to Dr. Berner-Lee’s original intent for the Web: that it be a read-write medium. I haven’t tried to use it to build anything serious, just was on the beta and clicked a few times through it, but never saved anything out of it.

I have no idea what Sparkle is, sadly. Link?

Walter

On May 3, 2014, at 10:08 PM, Robert wrote:

I have a friend who is a SalesForce wiz that is going to hang up her own shingle as a consultant. While incredibly bright (she learns things incredibly quickly), she has no HTML or CSS experience. She would like to put up her own website.

Knowing that I use Freeway Pro, she’s asked me to show her some ropes. While not a beginner, I’m far from an expert as I would consider myself HTML & CSS “familiar,” a step or two above a beginner.

Having noted comments over the months regarding Macaw, WebFlow, and Sparkle, I would appreciate any feedback, suggestions, or advice as to what might be a suitable tool.

While I have become familiar with FWP’s quirks, I’ve noted many comments that its UI is years behind where it should be. For those of us who lean far, far more toward the desire for true WYSIWYG (read, don’t really want to touch code) I’m left wondering if FWP has been surpassed by some of the new startups.

Thanks for any and all advice,
Robert

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3

She could use Wordpress. You can’t not notice that things have moved on a pace for a relative beginner to use existing Wordpress templates with up to date whizz bang jQuery galleries. All done within a browser at no cost but the web hosting. I noticed the other day a local Advertising/Creative Agency using $40 Wordpress template which for me was sailing over the line into passing off others creative work as their own.

Freeway can be a little wild west with semantic page structure for the novice user. Wordpress would keep things in general shape for that same novice so she just concentrates on her expertise.

David Owen

On 4 May 2014, at 03:08, “Robert” email@hidden wrote:

While incredibly bright (she learns things incredibly quickly), she has no HTML or CSS experience. She would like to put up her own website.

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4

Hmmm - while I agree to the above written things, I’d like to add some things:

I owe Freeway nearly everything I know today. I started at a time where I even din’t know what a URL is. At that time, I was so happy to be able to transfer the red, blue and green rectangle (with the text “This is a test text” in) live.

One thing I regret is that I lost a lot of time to get the gist of rock solid HTML construction. But at that time, web was way more “image-oriented”.

The pure “CMS adjusting templates” route is naturally as well possible - but this is not creating web experts - it is creating template-adjuster (such as the RapidWeaver audience).

Once the gist of relative positioning (which is anyway basic requirement no matter what you do) Freeway helps you a lot to keep the “overview” - especially if it comes to mark-up.

I have a lot of things that I’d like to see in Freeway, starting by having a web-app with all its necessary terms (line-height → leading …) rather then a mixture of InDesign and whatever. But for this I think I have to found a self-help group.

I wrote two WP themes - one entirely by hand (took me lightyears) and one even with Freeway. So it could be the kickstarted - but only if one invests time - but i think to be an expert, you have always to invest first.

Cheers

Thomas

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5

Thank you all for your comments (to date and those that will follow). I truly appreciate your input.

While I think I understand where Walter was headed, my friend isn’t “… marketing herself to Web experts to become a Web expert.” She will be marketing herself to businesses that use, or want to use, SalesForce. Paraphrasing Walter’s point about Freeway, there is a great chasm between using a tool and using it well. From what I’ve seen SaleForce has as many subtle and not-so-subtle nuances as Freeway. She asked me about Freeway to build and maintain a simple(ish) website.

I’m more than happy to share my (limited) Freeway skills with her to get her up to speed in developing a website which would allow her to hang out her consulting shingle, I’m aware that there are other tools popping up. The point is I’m not fully aware of what they do or how well they do it. Further, based on other “off topic” discussions, it is sounding like Freeway may be falling behind the curve. As software tools wax and wane, I just wanted to give her a more ear-to-the-ground set of suggestions than my limited experience offers.

Again, many thanks to all for your input.

Robert

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6

My I jump in here for a moment? I guess I am.

I am a rank amateur with FW pro. Although I have one website out there that is well accepted by the club for which it was designed
I don’t even remember how I got on this list.
A few questions. Why does it appear that there are so many questions about how FW should or should not work? Looking from the outside it would appear that FW was created out of primordial goo and continues to morph along with no head! Is there no brain behind FW that can answer these issues?

Secondly, my guess that most of you are in the UK and are professionals that build websites for a living or for your respective employers.

I don’t understand most of the questions? I did donate to Walter, I believe.

Ray

On May 5, 2014, at 12:55 PM, “Robert” email@hidden wrote:

Thank you all for your comments (to date and those that will follow). I truly appreciate your input.

While I think I understand where Walter was headed, my friend isn’t “… marketing herself to Web experts to become a Web expert.” She will be marketing herself to businesses that use, or want to use, SalesForce. Paraphrasing Walter’s point about Freeway, there is a great chasm between using a tool and using it well. From what I’ve seen SaleForce has as many subtle and not-so-subtle nuances as Freeway. She asked me about Freeway to build and maintain a simple(ish) website.

I’m more than happy to share my (limited) Freeway skills with her to get her up to speed in developing a website which would allow her to hang out her consulting shingle, I’m aware that there are other tools popping up. The point is I’m not fully aware of what they do or how well they do it. Further, based on other “off topic” discussions, it is sounding like Freeway may be falling behind the curve. As software tools wax and wane, I just wanted to give her a more ear-to-the-ground set of suggestions than my limited experience offers.

Again, many thanks to all for your input.

Robert

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7

A lot can be accomplished with FWP, but where it falls behind (besides the antiquated UI) is how efficiently a particular task can be done, eg, responsive or inline construction. Because SP goes to such lengths to protect the user from anything code-related it does impose certain restrictions on how the user can interact with the app. This can either be a benefit or a source of relentless and agonizing frustration depending on how you like to work and what you’re trying to accomplish.

Your friend should download the trials of Freeway, Flux, Macaw, Sparkle etc. and get hands-on with them to see what feels right for her and her needs. We can debate the pros and cons of each but in the end she is the one who will be using the app.

Todd

Further, based on other “off topic” discussions, it is sounding like Freeway may be falling behind the curve. As software tools wax and wane, I just wanted to give her a more ear-to-the-ground set of suggestions than my limited experience offers.

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8

On May 5, 2014, at 1:09 PM, Ray wrote:

My I jump in here for a moment? I guess I am.

I am a rank amateur with FW pro. Although I have one website out there that is well accepted by the club for which it was designed
I don’t even remember how I got on this list.
A few questions. Why does it appear that there are so many questions about how FW should or should not work? Looking from the outside it would appear that FW was created out of primordial goo and continues to morph along with no head! Is there no brain behind FW that can answer these issues?

One thing you will learn if you hang around here long enough is that Softpress (the company) are famously tight-lipped about future plans. You will only rarely hear them spill the beans about something that has not been released yet. This mailing list is primarily for user-to-user support, and while Softpress employees do pipe up from time to time in response to a question, that’s less the rule. Remember, there is an official support channel, by e-mailing support(a)softpress.com directly.

So the reason you may hear a lot of discussion about how Freeway ought to work is because people are using it, finding things they want to do that aren’t readily apparent how to do in Freeway, and either pointing that out, or asking how to work around to get it to happen anyway.

Secondly, my guess that most of you are in the UK and are professionals that build websites for a living or for your respective employers.

From my own inference, it’s about 60% US, 25% UK, and the rest are spread across the entire globe.

I don’t understand most of the questions? I did donate to Walter, I believe.

Thank you!

Walter

Ray

On May 5, 2014, at 12:55 PM, “Robert” email@hidden wrote:

Thank you all for your comments (to date and those that will follow). I truly appreciate your input.

While I think I understand where Walter was headed, my friend isn’t “… marketing herself to Web experts to become a Web expert.” She will be marketing herself to businesses that use, or want to use, SalesForce. Paraphrasing Walter’s point about Freeway, there is a great chasm between using a tool and using it well. From what I’ve seen SaleForce has as many subtle and not-so-subtle nuances as Freeway. She asked me about Freeway to build and maintain a simple(ish) website.

I’m more than happy to share my (limited) Freeway skills with her to get her up to speed in developing a website which would allow her to hang out her consulting shingle, I’m aware that there are other tools popping up. The point is I’m not fully aware of what they do or how well they do it. Further, based on other “off topic” discussions, it is sounding like Freeway may be falling behind the curve. As software tools wax and wane, I just wanted to give her a more ear-to-the-ground set of suggestions than my limited experience offers.

Again, many thanks to all for your input.

Robert

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9

This is by no means official or even remotely representative of the entire Freeway user population – it’s just the people who have signed up for FreeCounter:

http://freewaypro.com/counter2/people/countries

Very long tail of single-digit-users per country.

Walter

On May 5, 2014, at 1:18 PM, Walter Lee Davis wrote:

From my own inference, it’s about 60% US, 25% UK, and the rest are spread across the entire globe.

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10

Excuse me again.

Are Flux, Macaw, Sparkle, etc. (whatever they may be) Website authoring software? Are they as “easy” to use as FWP?. I don’t know a thing about HTML.

Walter, thank you for the swift and precise answers to my questions.

Ray

On May 5, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Todd email@hidden wrote:

A lot can be accomplished with FWP, but where it falls behind (besides the antiquated UI) is how efficiently a particular task can be done, eg, responsive or inline construction. Because SP goes to such lengths to protect the user from anything code-related it does impose certain restrictions on how the user can interact with the app. This can either be a benefit or a source of relentless and agonizing frustration depending on how you like to work and what you’re trying to accomplish.

Your friend should download the trials of Freeway, Flux, Macaw, Sparkle etc. and get hands-on with them to see what feels right for her and her needs. We can debate the pros and cons of each but in the end she is the one who will be using the app.

Todd
http://xiiro.com

Further, based on other “off topic” discussions, it is sounding like Freeway may be falling behind the curve. As software tools wax and wane, I just wanted to give her a more ear-to-the-ground set of suggestions than my limited experience offers.

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11

“Easy” is a very subjective term for this type of comparison. My definition most likely differs from yours. That being said, Sparkle is probably the simplest in terms of features and functionality. Macaw definitely benefits from a basic grasp of HTML and CSS, though I feel it has a long way to go before it finds its footing (still very new), and Flux is a capable WYSIWYG app but it comes with a definite and fairly steep learning curve.

Despite its shortcomings FW is probably the best at abstracting the user away from code even if the tools are long in the tooth. FW does get the job done, though perhaps not as well as other apps might be capable of, at least not without a fair bit of effort on the user’s part.

The ideal many people hold of being able to build a site without learning one whit about code is possible with FW (or Squarespace etc.) … but only to a point. If you can work within its limitations and don’t care too much about (or look too closely at) how FW goes about its business then it could be your dream app. Otherwise you need to accept that you will probably have to step outside your comfort zone at some point which might mean FW is no longer the best of the available options for your particular needs.

Todd

Excuse me again.

Are Flux, Macaw, Sparkle, etc. (whatever they may be) Website authoring software? Are they as “easy” to use as FWP?. I don’t know a thing about HTML.

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12

Thanks, Todd!

Ray

On May 5, 2014, at 2:39 PM, Todd email@hidden wrote:

“Easy” is a very subjective term for this type of comparison. My definition most likely differs from yours. That being said, Sparkle is probably the simplest in terms of features and functionality. Macaw definitely benefits from a basic grasp of HTML and CSS, though I feel it has a long way to go before it finds its footing (still very new), and Flux is a capable WYSIWYG app but it comes with a definite and fairly steep learning curve.

Despite its shortcomings FW is probably the best at abstracting the user away from code even if the tools are long in the tooth. FW does get the job done, though perhaps not as well as other apps might be capable of, at least not without a fair bit of effort on the user’s part.

The ideal many people hold of being able to build a site without learning one whit about code is possible with FW (or Squarespace etc.) … but only to a point. If you can work within its limitations and don’t care too much about (or look too closely at) how FW goes about its business then it could be your dream app. Otherwise you need to accept that you will probably have to step outside your comfort zone at some point which might mean FW is no longer the best of the available options for your particular needs.

Todd
http://xiiro.com

Excuse me again.

Are Flux, Macaw, Sparkle, etc. (whatever they may be) Website authoring software? Are they as “easy” to use as FWP?. I don’t know a thing about HTML.

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13

Why does it appear that there are so many questions about how FW should or should not work? Looking from the outside it would appear that FW was created out of primordial goo and continues to morph along with no head! Is there no brain behind FW that can answer these issues?

SP is not to be envied.

One (if not the main) reason for this is, while one part (the smaller) of FW-users is doing responsive pages in HTML5 mode, others are still struggling with getting an IE6 compatible mode for their pages.

In between there are now 14!!! years of web-dev. Unbelievable. And unfortunately design skills are nearby the same.

I’m in 2014 (and next year probably in 2015 - who knows), live with all I got - but would like to see the gap smaller.

But what could SP do? Throwing out the well matured? Going the risk of leaving experts? Keeping both - but how?

I still believe in FWP, but the one could say: “SP lips are sealed” and the other could call it “resistant to advice”.

Cheers

Thomas

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14

QUOTE: “…Remember, there is an official support channel, by e-mailing support(a)softpress.com directly…”

Indeed. I needed much support help in getting my website from FW Express — originally version 3.5, and upgraded gradually over the years to FW 6 Express — over to Fwy 6 Pro. It had accumulated a number of problems, including nearly 800 styles! (not manageable in Express).

I was in constant contact with the support team at support(a)softpress.com and they were of immense help to me in getting the website up and running in 6 Pro. Their responses were helpful, detailed, and consistently arrived within 24 hours of my questions. Kudos to Softpress support.

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