Misalignment of Art

Have a page done in one 6-cell, single column table.

Text content populates the first 1 cell; graphic images the next two cells, then text in one cell and art in next cell, following by final cell with text.

The Freeway page layout is fine, it previews fine, but it displays in browsers with extra space below the cells that have text followed by graphics cells.

http://home.comcast.net/~peterpica/finneganemails/pojabcardemail.html

I’m preparing this for email distribution as well as web should email recipient be unable to read the html.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

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(using 5.0p3 beta)


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When I changed the html text to .gifs, all’s fine.

What was I doing wrong?


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Sometime around 24/3/08 (at 22:44 -0400) peterpica said:

When I changed the html text to .gifs, all’s fine.

What was I doing wrong?

In a nutshell? Using a table structure to make your page layout! :slight_smile:

Pease forgive the all-caps, but… DON’T do that. Hand-made table
structures should be reserved for special occasions, not for basic
layout needs. Just draw out HTML and graphic boxes, arrange them on
the page (free-form!), and see how that works. If you have problems
there, you’re in a much, much better position to adjust things.

Oh, and if you set your text as graphics, the page is far less likely
to be indexed well, if at all, by search engines, and the page’s
accessibility level drops close to zero.

I’m afraid web design is basically a series of compromises. But once
you get the feel for it you’ll be able to work with all that to
produce excellent designs that work well.

k


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Hi

It’s perfectly legitimate to use tables to lay out pages; Keith is plain wrong on that score. In fact Freeway itself uses tables to space html boxes when creating non-CSS pages.

But Freeway has some irritating limitations when using tables to lay out pages, and these kind of make it much more difficult than it should be. So Keith is in a sense correct (in terms of using tables within Freeway).

The most fundamental weakness in Freeway is that it requires an absolute dimension in pixels for cell, row or column. Tables or cells in Freeway cannot be specified in ems or % or have their height left blank, even though this is perfectly legitimate (and desirable, as in your case) coding practice.

The reason for your problem was that the problem cells containing text have had their height set by Freeway to a certain number of pixels, based on the height required to fit the text you typed into that cell in Freeway. This height then gets coded by Freeway into the output as the minimum cell height. The cell will never get smaller than this, even if the browser font is miniscule. If the browser uses a smaller font than you had in Freeway, the cell does not ‘shrink down’ onto the text, so that the text does not completely fill the cell anymore, and there remains a line or so of white space below the end of the text. If you could set the cell containing text to ‘zero’ height - a perfectly legal coding practice - this problem would not exist.

But it is not possible, ordinarily, to tell Freeway to set ‘zero’ height for a table row or cell. In Freeway v5, zero height (flexible height) is (finally) allowable for html boxes, but still not possible for table cells.

This severely hampers using tables to lay out pages in Freeway.

Fortunately there is an action called “remove dimensions” that you can install. When applied to a table, it strips out whichever table dimensions you specify, so that the table can then become ‘liquid’ and stretch to fit different font sizes. This also allows tables to become horizontally stretchy too. Using this would solve your problem, and restores a lot of very useful table functionality to Freeway.

Sometimes, the ‘Freeway Way’ is easier. You can sometimes just draw html boxes wherever you like and leave it to Freeway to do all the page layout stuff for you. On the other hand, sometimes this just doesn’t turn out right either, especially if the user changes the font size on their browser. Nesting html boxes with relative dimensions - especially now that you can set html box heights to zero - ends up achieving something very similar to what one can achieve with tables.

For a straightforward page like yours, however, why not try just making one large html box, typing all your text into it, and inserting the graphics inline at the right places in the text. Everything will move up and down as required with the text if the font size of the browser is changed. If you want more than one graphic horizontally across the page you can put inline tables inline inside the same html box, use the remove dimensions action to force the table to 100% of the enclosing div, and then put the images inside the cells (all cells ending up with zero heights). Or you can put html boxes inside other html boxes, specifying relative offsets at right and left for the contained html boxes.

Freeway delivers a lot of flexibility and a lot of CSS functionality, however my experience is that to get really high quality pages out of it requires a fairly extensive understanding of coding practice, and it is necessary for the user to figure out a whole bunch of workarounds.

Good luck

Chris.


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I don’t think that Keith was saying anything of the sort. What he was
pointing out was that if you use the “Draw a Table” tool for creating
your page layout, you are making extra work for yourself, and losing
out in the bargain.

Freeway (in blue-button-off mode) will indeed create a table-based
page layout. But it will do a much more solid and predictable job of
it than if you hand-draw a table using the table tool.

All he was saying (and I agree and second this!) was that the table
tool should be reserved for drawing a table where you mean to add
tabular data. Stock prices. Football scores. Prices. Things like that
– which have tabular /meaning/ as well as tabular /layout/ – should
be laid out in a drawn table. Otherwise, just draw boxes. Trust the
tool to be smarter than you are with respect to making a table.
Unless you are the reincarnation of Peter-Paul Koch or something, it
will be.

Walter

On Mar 26, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Chris Thompson wrote:

It’s perfectly legitimate to use tables to lay out pages; Keith is
plain wrong on that score. In fact Freeway itself uses tables to
space html boxes when creating non-CSS pages.


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Chris & Walt: Thanks much. You gave me very valuable info regarding tables, and furthermor explained it in English.

Chris… where to get that action “remove dimensions”???

Thanks again all.


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Sometime around 26/3/08 (at 10:28 -0400) Chris Thompson said:

Hi

It’s perfectly legitimate to use tables to lay out pages; Keith is
plain wrong on that score.

Nope, just misunderstood. :slight_smile:

Try laying out a page using HTML and graphic frames, but no
hand-drawn table objects. Publish, and look at the code in your
browser’s source view. Tables, all made with zero effort.

If you try and use hand-drawn table objects as the basis for your
design ‘scaffolding’ I’m afraid you’re trying to use Freeway as if it
was PageMill 1.0. And that makes virtually no sense at all unless you
are preparing tabular data or are having cross-browser alignment
battles with form elements.

It seems from your post that you know a lot about this, but I
struggle to comprehend why you want to do this ‘old school’ when the
software is almost begging you to let go and get on with better
methods.

k


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I simply get frustrated when making the choice of a table or no
table. I have used them in certain sections to get alignment under
control (vs using a box and a double click to then insert another
graphic or html box - that is considered a child, right?) Anyway, I
find using a css table or regular is more of a visual anchor for me
that I can count on vs. my slippery fingers dragging a file out of
alignment (I suppose I could use the lock too). Sorry… my two
random cents.

On Mar 26, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Keith Martin wrote:

Sometime around 26/3/08 (at 10:28 -0400) Chris Thompson said:

Hi

It’s perfectly legitimate to use tables to lay out pages; Keith is
plain wrong on that score.

Nope, just misunderstood. :slight_smile:

Try laying out a page using HTML and graphic frames, but no
hand-drawn table objects. Publish, and look at the code in your
browser’s source view. Tables, all made with zero effort.

If you try and use hand-drawn table objects as the basis for your
design ‘scaffolding’ I’m afraid you’re trying to use Freeway as if it
was PageMill 1.0. And that makes virtually no sense at all unless you
are preparing tabular data or are having cross-browser alignment
battles with form elements.

It seems from your post that you know a lot about this, but I
struggle to comprehend why you want to do this ‘old school’ when the
software is almost begging you to let go and get on with better
methods.

k


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Beatrice:

My sentiments exactly. There’s some security of object placement when using them, but as suggested by others, using them may be unnecessary what with FP’s improved handling of floating objects in general.

Today’s lessons have saved me time and given me renewed confidence to boot!

Cheerio.


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Sometime around 26/3/08 (at 14:05 -0400) Bettie Sotomayor said:

I
find using a css table or regular is more of a visual anchor for me
that I can count on vs. my slippery fingers dragging a file out of
alignment

Heh. Isn’t this a little like nailing your plates to the table in
case you knock them off while serving the food?
:wink:

I understand why you do that, but it really is going to hold you back big-time.

k


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Bettie, sorry if this is all obvious but do you use guides when doing
your layouts? Object edges can snap to guides and alignment is then
easy or you can nudge the item around using the guide to assess the
relationship between parts of text or image that are not necessarily
an obvious edge (if you see what i mean). With an object selected
you can also manoeuvre it so that the central handles align with a
guide that is central to a number of items (or go to the Item/Align
command and take your pick of the options).

You can lock or not after the object is in place but even unlocked,
if you drag it by mistake, you know that the guide is there to show
where it should be.

Lots of options without resorting to the relative rigidity of tables.

Pete

On 26 Mar 2008, at 18:05, Bettie Sotomayor wrote:

I simply get frustrated when making the choice of a table or no
table. I have used them in certain sections to get alignment under
control (vs using a box and a double click to then insert another
graphic or html box - that is considered a child, right?) Anyway, I
find using a css table or regular is more of a visual anchor for me
that I can count on vs. my slippery fingers dragging a file out of
alignment (I suppose I could use the lock too). Sorry… my two
random cents.

On Mar 26, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Keith Martin wrote:

Sometime around 26/3/08 (at 10:28 -0400) Chris Thompson said:

Hi

It’s perfectly legitimate to use tables to lay out pages; Keith is
plain wrong on that score.

Nope, just misunderstood. :slight_smile:

Try laying out a page using HTML and graphic frames, but no
hand-drawn table objects. Publish, and look at the code in your
browser’s source view. Tables, all made with zero effort.

If you try and use hand-drawn table objects as the basis for your
design ‘scaffolding’ I’m afraid you’re trying to use Freeway as if it
was PageMill 1.0. And that makes virtually no sense at all unless you
are preparing tabular data or are having cross-browser alignment
battles with form elements.

It seems from your post that you know a lot about this, but I
struggle to comprehend why you want to do this ‘old school’ when the
software is almost begging you to let go and get on with better
methods.

k


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I am learning the ropes on all this stuff and its overwhelming. I know what I want to happen, but it always acts a bit “off”. Then I dont know if it is me or a bug in the app. I have just been pumping out pages… no time to stop and really understand what’s under the hood.

On Mar 26, 2008, at 2:27 PM, Keith Martin wrote:

Sometime around 26/3/08 (at 14:05 -0400) Bettie Sotomayor said:

I
find using a css table or regular is more of a visual anchor for me
that I can count on vs. my slippery fingers dragging a file out of
alignment

Heh. Isn’t this a little like nailing your plates to the table in
case you knock them off while serving the food?
:wink:

I understand why you do that, but it really is going to hold you back big-time.

k


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Sure I do that too - almost all of my pages. What gets frustrating
is when I place two objects 10px apart but when viewed in real time
it floats down three times farther. Even though I can line up the
top edges of the objects along the top, there’s no telling how long
an item would be… especially when you’re mixing images and text as
the OP was making note to. I rarely use tables - only when it is
consistent data that I can copy and paste or need rigid results and
dont have time to mess with floaters… oh, another annoying thing
is when you insert something and it overlaps… you get one html box
with a giant blue x through it. Do you think the un-do would fix
that? NO!! So I have no clue which one did what and where… and
redesign the darn page all over again. I hate that! When I need
quick output, I will use a table so it is forced in that little box
and not freaking out the rest of the page. Do I make sense? If I am
using FW “wrong” or the “long” way… enlighten me!

On Mar 26, 2008, at 3:04 PM, Pete MacKenzie wrote:

Bettie, sorry if this is all obvious but do you use guides when doing
your layouts? Object edges can snap to guides and alignment is then
easy or you can nudge the item around using the guide to assess the
relationship between parts of text or image that are not necessarily
an obvious edge (if you see what i mean). With an object selected
you can also manoeuvre it so that the central handles align with a
guide that is central to a number of items (or go to the Item/Align
command and take your pick of the options).

You can lock or not after the object is in place but even unlocked,
if you drag it by mistake, you know that the guide is there to show
where it should be.

Lots of options without resorting to the relative rigidity of tables.

Pete

On 26 Mar 2008, at 18:05, Bettie Sotomayor wrote:

I simply get frustrated when making the choice of a table or no
table. I have used them in certain sections to get alignment under
control (vs using a box and a double click to then insert another
graphic or html box - that is considered a child, right?) Anyway, I
find using a css table or regular is more of a visual anchor for me
that I can count on vs. my slippery fingers dragging a file out of
alignment (I suppose I could use the lock too). Sorry… my two
random cents.

On Mar 26, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Keith Martin wrote:

Sometime around 26/3/08 (at 10:28 -0400) Chris Thompson said:

Hi

It’s perfectly legitimate to use tables to lay out pages; Keith is
plain wrong on that score.

Nope, just misunderstood. :slight_smile:

Try laying out a page using HTML and graphic frames, but no
hand-drawn table objects. Publish, and look at the code in your
browser’s source view. Tables, all made with zero effort.

If you try and use hand-drawn table objects as the basis for your
design ‘scaffolding’ I’m afraid you’re trying to use Freeway as
if it
was PageMill 1.0. And that makes virtually no sense at all unless
you
are preparing tabular data or are having cross-browser alignment
battles with form elements.

It seems from your post that you know a lot about this, but I
struggle to comprehend why you want to do this ‘old school’ when the
software is almost begging you to let go and get on with better
methods.

k


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Nailing plates to dinner table?

My wife does that but only to make sure I won’t eat them (too)!


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Hi again…

The one great feature about hand-drawn tables is that - once the vertical height is set to zero with the remove dimensions action - everything within is vertically liquid, so that it looks great regardless of changes in user font. Furthermore, if one uses extended attributes to set relevant column dimensions in percentages, and sets the table to 100% width, so that it fills the enclosing div, then the whole thing becomes horizontally liquid as well.

Achieving the same result is possible with nested html boxes - but setting it up is actually more work in some respects. In particular, a nice feature of a table is that horizontal elements remain aligned together regardless of the height of any particular element. To do this with nested html boxes is fiddly as each is independent from the other.

Personally I think that there are some setups that are much better done with tables and some that are much better done with nested html boxes. In particular if you would like to have a number of horizontally grouped elements, where each element can vary in height if the font is changed, this is much easier to achieve in a table with the remove dimensions action.

However the reality is, right now, that Freeway works against the user if they try to use tables themselves. I see this as a significant weakness in the application design, one that frustrates new users and experienced users alike.

Freeway would be a much more powerful app if it gave the user the ability to set cell row and column attributes to null or empty values, in percentages, or in ems, without having to use extended attributes, actions, or other fudges.

BTW I did a quick test of just putting the original posters text by direct copy and paste from browser into an html box, then dragged the graphics and cut and pasted them into the run of text, set some padding around them… all done, just in one html box. Much easier, in this case, than a table. Liquid vertically as well. Simple.

Chris.


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Off topic but:

Chris… Where are you located? I see your time is currently 10:43 pm.

I’m at 7:26 pm here on the right coast of the USofA.


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I’m in Sydney, Australia…
c


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I’m with Beatrice. I could have two html elements that I have aligned using a horizontal rule, and when I go to publish, one of them will be half way down the page.

Things are always moving and the result is varied. Very far from WYSIWYG – and this applies to html and graphic items; layered, and unlayered. In the end, I tweak my sites to look good, but the process is usually so painful, that I usually end up saying that I’m never doing web design again. I’ve quit on myself four times, but the truth is I want to keep designing for web, but I can’t take the all the unexpected problems.

The overflow box with the “x” is super annoying. If there was ever a need for a multiple “undo”, it’s certainly now.

Rebecca


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I have found that behavior is corrected in the new release - meaning, when I do get the big X and then undo… the box pops back to what it was (almost 99% of them so far). Whew… that was a welcome sight. The only one thing I don’t see holding true are the “user master settings” and “user master content” - a couple pages didnt hold a footer or something in the right spot - but it seems to be coming along nicely (there certainly is room for operator error here, so I am not complaining)

On Mar 29, 2008, at 11:15 PM, rebeccafonseca wrote:

The overflow box with the “x” is super annoying.

<I’m with Beatrice. I could have two html elements that I have aligned using a horizontal rule, and when I go to publish, one of them will be half way down the page.>

Sure one of them isn’t defined with absolute positioning?

I had that problem too (until I decided to read the manual).

Just a thought.


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