"NSA taps in to internet giants' systems to mine user data, secret files reveal "

“The National Security Agency has obtained direct access to the systems of
Google, Facebook, Apple and other US internet giants, according to a top
secret document obtained by the Guardian…”

Roger Houghton
Bath, Somerset
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http://paranoia.dubfire.net/2013/06/analyzing-yahoos-prism-non-denial.html

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2013/06/08/google-prism

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2013/06/07/metadata

http://thenextweb.com/us/2013/06/07/wapost-backtracks-on-claim-tech-companies-participate-knowingly-in-prism-data-collection/

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57588313-93/facebook-ceo-denies-knowledge-of-nsas-prism-program/

The truth? I don’t know.


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Why not go to the source?

You know the truth. In the US there is no law against lying – unless you
have sworn to give true testimony, like in a court or during some
congressional hearings. Or in a contract or affidavit. Otherwise, lies are
protected as free speech. So anything anyone says - Google, Apple, Uncle
Sam - unless in court or on legal document, can be a consequence-free lie.

However, the best bullshit detector lies right there under your hat. If you
were paying attention to the Warrantless Wiretapping scandal that began
over a decade ago, how it was then retroactively legalized… if you paid
attention to legislation like the USA Patriot Act and its descendants… or
the leaks from the FISA court… or how internet and telecom companies sell
their services to governments… if you were paying any mind at all to news
of the NSA vastly expanding their data-farms to comb through yottabytes of
data (gosh, where did the data come from?)… then you would not be surprised
at all at this news.

You would be like me, surprised that finally anyone else has noticed.


Ernie Simpson

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Joe Muscara email@hidden wrote:

slight paranoia: Analyzing Yahoo's PRISM non-denial

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2013/06/08/google-prism

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2013/06/07/metadata

http://thenextweb.com/us/2013/06/07/wapost-backtracks-on-claim-tech-companies-participate-knowingly-in-prism-data-collection/

Facebook CEO denies knowledge of NSA's PRISM program - CNET

The truth? I don’t know.


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I don’t know that John Q. public are surprised that tech companies are government bitches so much as the incredible scope of what’s allegedly possible with PRISM technology. And I’m sure my use of “PRISM” has already triggered a flag in some data-center buried in the desert.

Todd
http://xiiro.com

then you would not be surprised at all at this news.

You would be like me, surprised that finally anyone else has noticed.


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One brave whistleblower:

http://www.guardian.co.uk

Roger

Roger Houghton
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Another aspect that goes unappreciated in US reporting is the amount of
dissembling that takes place… officials all say they aren’t “listening” to
each phone call (like they all share the same talking-point memo), but they
don’t mention that the call and all it was recorded and stored for later
review. Telecom and Internet companies say the NSA has no “direct access”
to customer information, but do not deny or specify the nature of the
access they do have.


Ernie Simpson

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Todd email@hidden wrote:

I don’t know that John Q. public are surprised that tech companies are
government bitches so much as the incredible scope of what’s allegedly
possible with PRISM technology. And I’m sure my use of “PRISM” has already
triggered a flag in some data-center buried in the desert.

Todd
http://xiiro.com

then you would not be surprised at all at this news.

You would be like me, surprised that finally anyone else has noticed.


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There’s nothing new on this. For centuries government agencies have been steaming open letters, tapping phones and conversations, of innocent and guilty. We have cctv everywhere now and Facebook purloining information (NSA but with adds). Is the west any worse than other countries. Do they really have an ‘architecture of oppression’, or are some just reading to much Robert Ludlum fiction.

We are in a new era of communication that relies on different strategies. I suspect (but not a ‘suspect’ as far as I’m aware) that their filtering of data is sophisticated enough to build a suspect profile, websites visited, email keyword collated that the majority is just noise. We are noise, rustling leaves in a vast forest.

If google and co are complicit is another matter but they’re not short of playing games and of having self interested alternate agendas.

s


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I agree the sheer volume of data that could potentially be collected through PRISM et. al. means that most of us are indeed rustling leaves but that doesn’t make me feel any better about it. And I sure as hell don’t feel any safer because of PRISM or the creation of the Patriot Act which as far as I’m concerned was a blatant and openly public harbinger of the death rattle of personal freedoms. One of the worst pieces of legislation ever. Collect a little here, a little there. The obvious question is where does it stop? What’s the cost?

Todd
http://xiiro.com

We are noise, rustling leaves in a vast forest.


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The issue is one of trust.

If the NSA is using the information solely to stop terrorism (and other high crimes of foreign origin), perhaps we can all swallow hard and live another day to debate the rightness, efficacy, and costs.

However, this administration has shown blatant disregard for the law — against the average citizen. Where previous administrations have used (abused) government agencies (e.g. Kennedy’s use of the IRS against Nixon) for their own political gains (and administrators themselves, e.g. Hoover’s private FBI files), this administration has leaped over the line. It has already been made abundantly clear that the IRS has not only abused its authority by hammering on political groups opposed to the administration, it has shared confidential information with political opponents. Chilling, regardless of what political bent you may be.

Now we find out that the TV show “Person of Interest” isn’t all that much of a fallacy. Can we trust that no one has been planted in the NSA from the administration to syphon off information about individuals of political groups that is then turned over to political opponents?

Street cameras in public spaces are not an invasion of privacy (I stopped picking my nose in public when I was four years old). When one makes a phone call (unless on one of the few remaining party lines), one anticipates privacy. Same with e-mail or snail-mail. Our government shouldn’t be tapping or opening a thing without cause and a clear warrant. It is, not to sound too parochial — the law.

Apologies for venting… Not in a trusting mood today.


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On 10 June 2013 21:43, Robert email@hidden wrote:

If the NSA is using the information solely to stop terrorism

You’re happy for all your movements being recorded and stored because you
trust that it’ll only ever be used for purposes with which you’re in
agreement?

Just listening to Daniel Ellsberg on the radio: ‘We’re not a police state
but we’re putting in place the means to become a police state should
political circumstances change’.

Roger Houghton
Bath, Somerset
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“Snowden’s whistleblowing gives us a chance to roll back what is tantamount
to an ‘executive coup’ against the US constitution”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-america

Roger Houghton
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Roger,

No — not happy at all! Guess sarcasm and venting don’t mix.

I agree with your ‘executive coup’ comment.

Troubling revelations.

Robert


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On 10 June 2013 22:36, Robert email@hidden wrote:

Roger,

No — not happy at all! Guess sarcasm and venting don’t mix.

Sorry! Should have read your post properly instead of skimming it.

I agree with your ‘executive coup’ comment.

Actually it’s Ellsberg’s but he seems on the right lines.

Troubling revelations.

Robert

Roger

Roger Houghton
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At 16:43 -0400 10/6/13, Robert wrote:

The issue is one of trust.

If the NSA is using the information solely to stop terrorism (and
other high crimes of foreign origin), perhaps we can all swallow
hard and live another day to debate the rightness, efficacy, and
costs.

But how much would it actually help against such threats even if
fully, openly and freely exploited?

As someone who has been managing IP networks for a long time I see
everything above DNS to be ‘convenience services’. DNS is borderline.
What the NSA seems to be looking at are the very high-level services
of Google, Facebook and the like.

What serious terrorist or kiddie porn addict is going to use Google
or Facebook to find material. Surely they’re going to go straight to
the IP address discovered from other sources where they will be
missed entirely by the monitoring. Traffic analysis may be done, but
with no hint as to content and no indication as to how the IP address
was determined (and so possibly monitored at a higher level), not a
great deal can be done with it.

It may be the ‘best’ they can do, but the NSA is going to miss the
real threats anyway.

David


David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
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On 10 Jun 2013, 1:05 pm, The Big Erns wrote:

Why not go to the source?
NSA Prism program taps in to user data of Apple, Google and others | US national security | The Guardian

You know the truth.

Ernie, My point was, perhaps the truth is somewhere in between. I provided a number of different links, some of which said, “we’re not cooperating, we don’t know what they’re talking about” and others that seemed to confirm the earlier reports. You did not need to give me the same link as Roger initially posted. I saw that already. :slight_smile:

I think Daring Fireball’s article about metadata was an interesting contrast to what the President said. Or perhaps I should say, a contradiction. Did you read that one?

Please don’t act like I said things were rosy. They aren’t. I’m not happy, I’m helpless. I’m tired of “law and order” types who are willing to give up freedoms for safety. I’m tired of people saying, “why should I care? I have nothing to hide.” I’m tired of people who will vote for elected officials that support this kind of activity because they’re scared.

I’ll end with two quotes, the first of which I saw online yesterday, the second has been around a long, long time. In fact, those who talk about being an originalist, who claim to go back to the Founding Fathers should listen to that one.

‘Focusing on “what I have to hide” is a weirdly selfish way to think about privacy. Like saying: “I’m white, why should I care about racism?”’

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” -Benjamin Franklin


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Joe, I think that we share similar feelings about the whole thing - that we
both are frustrated patriots. I hope you don’t think otherwise, or that I
was implying anything I was not.

Great quotes btw. I myself think long and hard these days about the
traitor/patriot John Brown
http://www.nellaware.com/blog/john-brown-quotes.html


Ernie Simpson

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Joe Muscara email@hidden wrote:

On 10 Jun 2013, 1:05 pm, The Big Erns wrote:

Why not go to the source?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data

You know the truth.

Ernie, My point was, perhaps the truth is somewhere in between. I provided
a number of different links, some of which said, “we’re not cooperating, we
don’t know what they’re talking about” and others that seemed to confirm
the earlier reports. You did not need to give me the same link as Roger
initially posted. I saw that already. :slight_smile:

I think Daring Fireball’s article about metadata was an interesting
contrast to what the President said. Or perhaps I should say, a
contradiction. Did you read that one?

Please don’t act like I said things were rosy. They aren’t. I’m not happy,
I’m helpless. I’m tired of “law and order” types who are willing to give up
freedoms for safety. I’m tired of people saying, “why should I care? I have
nothing to hide.” I’m tired of people who will vote for elected officials
that support this kind of activity because they’re scared.

I’ll end with two quotes, the first of which I saw online yesterday, the
second has been around a long, long time. In fact, those who talk about
being an originalist, who claim to go back to the Founding Fathers should
listen to that one.

‘Focusing on “what I have to hide” is a weirdly selfish way to think about
privacy. Like saying: “I’m white, why should I care about racism?”’

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” -Benjamin Franklin


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On 11 Jun 2013, 1:08 pm, The Big Erns wrote:

Joe, I think that we share similar feelings about the whole thing - that we
both are frustrated patriots. I hope you don’t think otherwise, or that I
was implying anything I was not.

Great quotes btw. I myself think long and hard these days about the
traitor/patriot John Brown
http://www.nellaware.com/blog/john-brown-quotes.html

Ernie Simpson

Yeah, I think that once these kinds of things are in place, we never really get rid of them without a purge. Even if Google and Facebook are telling the truth, there are still the other issues.

Nowadays, I don’t see any movement big and bold enough to really create the change needed. I don’t know why that’s happened.


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Woz on the NSA revelations:

“Steve Wozniak: ‘I felt about Edward Snowden the way I felt about Daniel
Ellsberg’”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/21/wozniak-guilty-nsa-surveillance-snowden

Roger

Roger Houghton
Bath, Somerset
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http://www.heavy.com/tech/2013/06/steve-wozniak-nsa-spying-prism-video

On 21 June 2013 12:29, Roger Houghton email@hidden wrote:

Woz on the NSA revelations:

“Steve Wozniak: ‘I felt about Edward Snowden the way I felt about Daniel
Ellsberg’”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/21/wozniak-guilty-nsa-surveillance-snowden

Roger

Roger Houghton
Bath, Somerset
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Roger Houghton
Bath, Somerset
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