[Pro] Anybody know about box modelling?

Hi can anybody please help me with box modelling softpress don’t offer support with it and I can find much that is helpful online?


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Without understanding what the box model is in CSS terms you have little
chance of understanding it in FW - read this for a basic understanding in
CSS terms - dont worry if you dont understand it all, just get the basic
concept.

Then, read this fantastic Freeway tutorial which will show you how to do it
in FW step by step.

http://users.softpress.com/chrissowley/boxmodel-tutorial.pdf

On 7 May 2013 11:22, Jack email@hidden wrote:

Hi can anybody please help me with box modelling softpress don’t offer
support with it and I can find much that is helpful online?


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Also an excellent resource can be found here: http://www.kimmich-dm.de/screencasts.php


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What I am trying todo is create a header and footer that stretch across the browser page. I have been told that this i s box modelling and basically thats what I am trying to do.


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I think Jack refers to “box-model” in this case to mean “inline
construction”. The CSS Box Model is a historically and topically
significant term which, unfortunately, is confusing within the confines of
our forum.

Video tutorials: http://www.kimmich-dm.de/screencasts.php

Downloadable Freeway Pro 6 file:
http://cssway.thebigerns.com/products/inline-basic-layout/


Ernie Simpson

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Glyn Winter email@hiddenwrote:

Without understanding what the box model is in CSS terms you have little
chance of understanding it in FW - read this for a basic understanding in
CSS terms - dont worry if you dont understand it all, just get the basic
concept.

The CSS Box Model | CSS-Tricks - CSS-Tricks

Then, read this fantastic Freeway tutorial which will show you how to do it
in FW step by step.

http://users.softpress.com/chrissowley/boxmodel-tutorial.pdf

On 7 May 2013 11:22, Jack email@hidden wrote:

Hi can anybody please help me with box modelling softpress don’t offer
support with it and I can find much that is helpful online?


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All “construction” is effectively inline regardless so that term is
meaningless - “box model” is the widely used terminology within CSS to mean
adding padding and borders to elements to construct a meaningful layout
which incorporates inline structure and absolute and floated elements so
the terminology is quite correct.

On 7 May 2013 13:26, Ernie Simpson email@hidden wrote:

I think Jack refers to “box-model” in this case to mean “inline
construction”. The CSS Box Model is a historically and topically
significant term which, unfortunately, is confusing within the confines of
our forum.

Video tutorials: http://www.kimmich-dm.de/screencasts.php

Downloadable Freeway Pro 6 file:
thebigerns.com


Ernie Simpson

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Glyn Winter <email@hidden

wrote:

Without understanding what the box model is in CSS terms you have little
chance of understanding it in FW - read this for a basic understanding in
CSS terms - dont worry if you dont understand it all, just get the basic
concept.

The CSS Box Model | CSS-Tricks - CSS-Tricks

Then, read this fantastic Freeway tutorial which will show you how to do
it
in FW step by step.

http://users.softpress.com/chrissowley/boxmodel-tutorial.pdf

On 7 May 2013 11:22, Jack email@hidden wrote:

Hi can anybody please help me with box modelling softpress don’t offer
support with it and I can find much that is helpful online?


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Basically what I want to do as I post above is make the header and footer stretch across the browser page, I was told that this is box modelling, is this right? If so how do I go about do this? I have had a look at some of the articles you have sent me some of them seem to be quite helpful. Thanks `guys


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Jack the question has been asked dozens of times on this forum and very
clear and thorough answers have been given each time - I dont say this to
discourage you from asking again, but to encourage you to check the history
of the previous posts as it usually saves a lot of time and will give you a
wealth of explanations to choose from. Caleb very usefully provided a very
good way to search pass CSS posts and indeed anything CSS related using his
search tool here http://freewaysearch.calebgrove.com/

On 7 May 2013 13:38, Jack email@hidden wrote:

Basically what I want to do as I post above is make the header and footer
stretch across the browser page, I was told that this is box modelling, is
this right? If so how do I go about do this? I have had a look at some of
the articles you have sent me some of them seem to be quite helpful. Thanks
`guys


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In HTML, the term Box Model refers to how element dimensions are calculated
in the browser, not what their child or parent relationships are. Freeway
Pro invisibly handles much of actual HTML box-model issues (subtracting
padding from div widths, for example).

Inline construction refers to a very specific Freeway Pro way of working,
so it is hardly “meaningless” within the confines of the FreewayTalk
community. If everyone wants to call it something other than “inline”, then
terrific - but I strongly think “box-model” is misleading.

Best,

Ernie Simpson, aka The Big Erns

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Glyn Winter email@hiddenwrote:

All “construction” is effectively inline regardless so that term is
meaningless - “box model” is the widely used terminology within CSS to mean
adding padding and borders to elements to construct a meaningful layout
which incorporates inline structure and absolute and floated elements so
the terminology is quite correct.

On 7 May 2013 13:26, Ernie Simpson email@hidden wrote:

I think Jack refers to “box-model” in this case to mean “inline
construction”. The CSS Box Model is a historically and topically
significant term which, unfortunately, is confusing within the confines
of
our forum.

Video tutorials: http://www.kimmich-dm.de/screencasts.php

Downloadable Freeway Pro 6 file:
thebigerns.com


Ernie Simpson

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Glyn Winter <email@hidden

wrote:

Without understanding what the box model is in CSS terms you have
little
chance of understanding it in FW - read this for a basic understanding
in
CSS terms - dont worry if you dont understand it all, just get the
basic
concept.

The CSS Box Model | CSS-Tricks - CSS-Tricks

Then, read this fantastic Freeway tutorial which will show you how to
do
it
in FW step by step.

http://users.softpress.com/chrissowley/boxmodel-tutorial.pdf

On 7 May 2013 11:22, Jack email@hidden wrote:

Hi can anybody please help me with box modelling softpress don’t
offer
support with it and I can find much that is helpful online?


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Is this what you want (Black header with language flags and telephone at top of page):
http://econpool.com

I created this by:

  1. Drawing an html item across the page width
  2. Set it to the height I wanted
  3. Select ‘Fixed in Window’
  4. I added a black image to fill the div
  5. Select the div and bring it to the front (Page then slides under it when scrolling).
  6. In my case the page is set to: Center

The flags are set into another div inside the header div, that is set to float: Left
The telephone is in another div inside the header div, that div is manually positioned to the right and set to ‘Absolute’ so slides in and out with the page width change.

This is for the header, I haven’t used one as a footed but I guess it must be as easy although I would need to experiment to see if it is.

HTH

On May 7, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Jack wrote:

Basically what I want to do as I post above is make the header and footer stretch across the browser page, I was told that this is box modelling, is this right? If so how do I go about do this? I have had a look at some of the articles you have sent me some of them seem to be quite helpful. Thanks `guys


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You can see an image of the page header structure here:


HTH

On May 7, 2013, at 3:4 PM, Mike B wrote:

Is this what you want (Black header with language flags and telephone at top of page):
http://econpool.com

I created this by:

  1. Drawing an html item across the page width
  2. Set it to the height I wanted
  3. Select ‘Fixed in Window’
  4. I added a black image to fill the div
  5. Select the div and bring it to the front (Page then slides under it when scrolling).
  6. In my case the page is set to: Center

The flags are set into another div inside the header div, that is set to float: Left
The telephone is in another div inside the header div, that div is manually positioned to the right and set to ‘Absolute’ so slides in and out with the page width change.

This is for the header, I haven’t used one as a footed but I guess it must be as easy although I would need to experiment to see if it is.

HTH

On May 7, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Jack wrote:

Basically what I want to do as I post above is make the header and footer stretch across the browser page, I was told that this is box modelling, is this right? If so how do I go about do this? I have had a look at some of the articles you have sent me some of them seem to be quite helpful. Thanks `guys


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On 7 May 2013, 12:34 pm, Glynster wrote:

All “construction” is effectively inline regardless so that term is
meaningless - “box model” is the widely used terminology within CSS to mean
adding padding and borders to elements to construct a meaningful layout
which incorporates inline structure and absolute and floated elements so
the terminology is quite correct.

I beg to differ. Freeway, in its CSS Layout mode, creates a single position:relative “PageDiv”, and then positions all of its children as absolute. There is only the most pedantic of differences between this construction and a truly absolute layout (where all absolute elements are children of the ).

Box model as a term relates only to how you calculate the dimensions of objects on screen, not their relationship to one another, whether hierarchical or as floated or positioned peers.

Yes, you can say that all layouts are inline (if they’re valid) because every visible element is a nested child of the body (or the PageDiv). But that’s a distinction without meaning. An inline layout, as defined here in the context if a Freeway layout, is one where elements are nested within other elements during the layout process, as a means to creating a “bulletproof” layout across browsers and platforms.

Walter


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I only prefer and use the term “box model” since it is the terminology
already used widely within the HTML/CSS community to refer to positioning
elements using padding and margin - INLCUDING, by necessity, the exceptions
and issues that arise from floating elements around them and the negative
space that they do (relative positioning for example) or dont (margin
collapse, overlapping etc) .

I meant no personal slur by saying that the term “inline construction” was
meaningless - only that all true construction is actually HTML and is
inline by default ( the rest is effectively styling and the “box model” is
the standard way of doing that as you know) and so describing a particular
way of working as inline was “effectively meaningless” or at
least inadequately specific - - to correct people for using terminology
that would help them seek assistance beyond this forum is
pedantic, superior and unproductive in my opinion.

Call it what you like, but the particular method of working in FW which we
are all discussing involves primarily employing the box model technique to
position inline elements and so for people learning to use this software
(and this is a forum for that after all - not a theoretical FW
quasi-science discussion replete with its own terminology) it is surely
most helpful to use the full wealth of standard HTML and CSS terminology
and parlance.

On 7 May 2013 14:16, Mike B email@hidden wrote:

You can see an image of the page header structure here:

http://easibase.com/images-fw/header-jack.jpg
http://easibase.com/images-fw/header-jack2.jpg

HTH

On May 7, 2013, at 3:4 PM, Mike B wrote:

Is this what you want (Black header with language flags and telephone at
top of page):
http://econpool.com

I created this by:

  1. Drawing an html item across the page width
  2. Set it to the height I wanted
  3. Select ‘Fixed in Window’
  4. I added a black image to fill the div
  5. Select the div and bring it to the front (Page then slides under it
    when scrolling).
  6. In my case the page is set to: Center

The flags are set into another div inside the header div, that is set to
float: Left
The telephone is in another div inside the header div, that div is
manually positioned to the right and set to ‘Absolute’ so slides in and out
with the page width change.

This is for the header, I haven’t used one as a footed but I guess it
must be as easy although I would need to experiment to see if it is.

HTH

On May 7, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Jack wrote:

Basically what I want to do as I post above is make the header and
footer stretch across the browser page, I was told that this is box
modelling, is this right? If so how do I go about do this? I have had a
look at some of the articles you have sent me some of them seem to be quite
helpful. Thanks `guys


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Remember, block level elements are boxes too (everything in the DOM is) and
can have margins and padding not just arbitrary divs - block level elements
are only 100% width by default - the box model is a manner of treating ALL
elements on screen that are inline - its a way of controlling inline
elements - not the fact that they are inline or not - its how you treat
them for layout and so the most appropriate term above the less specific
“inline”.


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Actually, I was hoping to help people find help outside of the narrow strictures of Freeway’s peculiar layout model. Box model is a nearly meaningless term, related purely to how wide or tall an element appears on screen, and how much room it reserves for itself in the presence of peers. It does not relate in any way besides dimensions to the overall structure (semantic or practical) of the HTML elements in the page.

When you say that box-model is used to refer to layout technique (inserting an element within another element versus inserting both elements as peers within a parent or the body) could you please point to an example of that?

I have been building Web sites since 1994 and using Freeway since 1997. I really have never encountered box model as a term except in the very narrow and fussy answer to the questions “why does this box appear larger than that box, if they’re both set as 500px wide?” or “why does my layout fall apart on IE?”.

I appreciate your insight into this, and I’m really not trying to split hairs here. If someone asked me to discuss box model layouts, and I had no frame of reference vis-a-vis Freeway or hand-coding, I would seriously give them the duck-face.

Thanks,

Walter

On May 7, 2013, at 11:53 AM, Glyn Winter wrote:

Call it what you like, but the particular method of working in FW which we
are all discussing involves primarily employing the box model technique to
position inline elements and so for people learning to use this software
(and this is a forum for that after all - not a theoretical FW
quasi-science discussion replete with its own terminology) it is surely
most helpful to use the full wealth of standard HTML and CSS terminology
and parlance.


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Strikes me that the only confusion here is caused by the “two methods” of
working in FW since you’re right, in the real world people only talk about
normal flow, absolute and fixed layouts (others are very rarely used) - not
just the two modes of working in FW we’ve been debating. Since FW works
only with absolute and relative layouts with the standard “drag and drop”
mode the distinction with inline/box layouts is firstly that they are
inline - I agree. However, that does nothing to further determine layout. I
was merely trying to explain, that since every object in the browser is in
effect a box (Chris Coyier, CSS guru who you’ll doubtless know of does a
good job of explaining that here The CSS Box Model | CSS-Tricks - CSS-Tricks )
the “box model” is commonly used to refer to the issues that
surround positioning inline and block elements to achieve layout -
semantics aside ( I dont see the relevance).

Eric Mayer coined the term box model - when there was only inline layouts -
to refer to this mode of working.

On 7 May 2013 17:23, Walter Lee Davis email@hidden wrote:

Actually, I was hoping to help people find help outside of the narrow
strictures of Freeway’s peculiar layout model. Box model is a nearly
meaningless term, related purely to how wide or tall an element appears on
screen, and how much room it reserves for itself in the presence of peers.
It does not relate in any way besides dimensions to the overall structure
(semantic or practical) of the HTML elements in the page.

When you say that box-model is used to refer to layout technique
(inserting an element within another element versus inserting both elements
as peers within a parent or the body) could you please point to an example
of that?

I have been building Web sites since 1994 and using Freeway since 1997. I
really have never encountered box model as a term except in the very narrow
and fussy answer to the questions “why does this box appear larger than
that box, if they’re both set as 500px wide?” or “why does my layout fall
apart on IE?”.

I appreciate your insight into this, and I’m really not trying to split
hairs here. If someone asked me to discuss box model layouts, and I had no
frame of reference vis-a-vis Freeway or hand-coding, I would seriously give
them the duck-face.

Thanks,

Walter

On May 7, 2013, at 11:53 AM, Glyn Winter wrote:

Call it what you like, but the particular method of working in FW which
we
are all discussing involves primarily employing the box model technique
to
position inline elements and so for people learning to use this software
(and this is a forum for that after all - not a theoretical FW
quasi-science discussion replete with its own terminology) it is surely
most helpful to use the full wealth of standard HTML and CSS terminology
and parlance.


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Of course. And a block-level element may be (modulo certain rules and restrictions on ancestry) nested *inline within another block-level element, and that is a fundamental difference from drawing (in Freeway) a box over the top of another box, which may result in either two fundamentally disconnected peers or a positioned child of the first box, depending on what was selected when you began drawing. In the former example, the two boxes (regardless of their actual HTML tag structure) could be separated by acres of non-semantic and unrelated code, again, depending on the order of operations and the current cursor.

Freeway does reduce what is normally a very fluid and flexible layout decision (when hand-coding) into a fairly binary decision: do I insert at a text cursor and resize, or draw with a container tool to my desired coordinates?

When you know what the resulting HTML will be, the discussion is much easier, and the pros and cons are simpler to weigh. But Freeway enforces a sort of hands-off approach to HTML, insulating you from its actual nature – in many cases, to your detriment. This can be a huge boon, particularly when you want to radically re-design a page many times before “finishing” it with a CMS or other dynamic content. Not knowing or caring about the HTML structure at that stage will allow you to “kill your darlings” and not look back. When you start with the code, you have a natural aversion to changing it too dramatically, lest you have to re-think your entire structure.

The down-side of this is that you do end up with a visual layout that can be entirely divorced from the source-flow order of elements, and that can result in a real hash for the search engines or screen readers, since all they “see” is the HTML.

It took me years of comparison and study to begin to appreciate why Freeway does what it does. It can be very fast to sketch something, but particularly when building forms or structuring repeating content for a CMS, it can be a serious drag on productivity. These pain points have spawned a lot of Actions on my part and others’.

Thanks for the discussion, I think this has been a good exposition of the dangers and benefits of WYSIWYG.

Walter

On May 7, 2013, at 12:17 PM, Glyn Winter wrote:

Remember, block level elements are boxes too (everything in the DOM is) and
can have margins and padding not just arbitrary divs - block level elements
are only 100% width by default - the box model is a manner of treating ALL
elements on screen that are inline - its a way of controlling inline
elements - not the fact that they are inline or not - its how you treat
them for layout and so the most appropriate term above the less specific
“inline”.


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Ditto.

Also, just trying to avoid confusion among the ranks.


Ernie Simpson

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Walter Lee Davis email@hiddenwrote:

Actually, I was hoping to help people find help outside of the narrow
strictures of Freeway’s peculiar layout model. Box model is a nearly
meaningless term, related purely to how wide or tall an element appears on
screen, and how much room it reserves for itself in the presence of peers.
It does not relate in any way besides dimensions to the overall structure
(semantic or practical) of the HTML elements in the page.

When you say that box-model is used to refer to layout technique
(inserting an element within another element versus inserting both elements
as peers within a parent or the body) could you please point to an example
of that?

I have been building Web sites since 1994 and using Freeway since 1997. I
really have never encountered box model as a term except in the very narrow
and fussy answer to the questions “why does this box appear larger than
that box, if they’re both set as 500px wide?” or “why does my layout fall
apart on IE?”.

I appreciate your insight into this, and I’m really not trying to split
hairs here. If someone asked me to discuss box model layouts, and I had no
frame of reference vis-a-vis Freeway or hand-coding, I would seriously give
them the duck-face.

Thanks,

Walter

On May 7, 2013, at 11:53 AM, Glyn Winter wrote:

Call it what you like, but the particular method of working in FW which
we
are all discussing involves primarily employing the box model technique
to
position inline elements and so for people learning to use this software
(and this is a forum for that after all - not a theoretical FW
quasi-science discussion replete with its own terminology) it is surely
most helpful to use the full wealth of standard HTML and CSS terminology
and parlance.


freewaytalk mailing list
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Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

I am used to know Bounty as a candy bar while others know it as a kitchen paper. But instead of wet oneself I tend to think about a solution of this ridiculous discussion.

The poor man above simply wanted to know about the other way of constructing a webpage using Freeway. This is common and well known as Box-Model since Dan introduced it in the old days of FreewayPro (version 4 or so). He (as far as I remember) even warned to use this name as a maybe misleading one, but he basically liked it and nobody really cared about.

Instead of trying to understand the model, people started to demonize it as unsuitable for an average mortal Freeway-user. Those discussions had been maximum intense, that the unnamable dark-lord (the Box-Model damn named it) became maximum popular.

Until these days - and I’m sure:

Asked 100 Freeway-users, 98 know about it and never will mix it up. I even tend to say, that even 96 are clever enough to not to deal with this specific name beyond FreewayTalk. So I see neither confusions nor any kind of misunderstandings.

I restricted it to the term of “Freeway Box-Model”, so I thought I leave no doubt that it is specific and I’m safe. I even explained somewhere the difference. But it looks like I failed.

The only question left then:

How shall we name it instead and how do we prevent in the future our poor souls from being infected or even influenced by the ugly web-world-terms out there?

So experts - butter with the fish.

Cheers

The keeper of the Dark-Lords Model


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Hi Thomas,

It would make no difference to me either, except that the CSS Box Model is
still a very important concept and gets talked about from time to time.
When people on the list begin referring those who are interested in your
Box Model concept to articles on the CSS Box Model concept, it can only
end in frustration. Both are important concepts for the frequenters of the
list, both concepts have the same name, and both are miles (kilometers?)
apart in meaning.

When I am discussing the Freeway technique, I refer to inline design
(method, construction, etc.) It seems a better descriptive to me – as the
technique is based on inserting layout containers (html items) inline
as you would text items. Inflow would be another example of a better
descriptive name. Although I admit “boxes” are what newbs call divs, and
that because of that there is some small descriptive value there as well.

I’m almost never by the terminology, and it is likely true that a majority
of the FWT community may not be confused by it either, however you have in
this very thread an example of someone asking for information on the Box
Model and almost instantly (and persistently) producing references to the
wrong concept.

Still, it seems to be a very popular name – you did an excellent job in
your screencast btw of defining your use of the term. What about a
compromise then, like “Inline Box Model” or “Box Inflow” or “Inline Boxes”?
All I want really is to refer people like Jack to the right places without
them having to sort out irrelevant discussions of computed width or
padding-box versus border-box.


Ernie Simpson

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 6:07 AM, Thomas Kimmich email@hidden wrote:

I am used to know Bounty as a candy bar while others know it as a kitchen
paper. But instead of wet oneself I tend to think about a solution of this
ridiculous discussion.

The poor man above simply wanted to know about the other way of
constructing a webpage using Freeway. This is common and well known as
Box-Model since Dan introduced it in the old days of FreewayPro (version 4
or so). He (as far as I remember) even warned to use this name as a maybe
misleading one, but he basically liked it and nobody really cared about.

Instead of trying to understand the model, people started to demonize it
as unsuitable for an average mortal Freeway-user. Those discussions had
been maximum intense, that the unnamable dark-lord (the Box-Model damn
named it) became maximum popular.

Until these days - and I’m sure:

Asked 100 Freeway-users, 98 know about it and never will mix it up. I even
tend to say, that even 96 are clever enough to not to deal with this
specific name beyond FreewayTalk. So I see neither confusions nor any kind
of misunderstandings.

I restricted it to the term of “Freeway Box-Model”, so I thought I leave
no doubt that it is specific and I’m safe. I even explained somewhere the
difference. But it looks like I failed.

The only question left then:

How shall we name it instead and how do we prevent in the future our poor
souls from being infected or even influenced by the ugly web-world-terms
out there?

So experts - butter with the fish.

Cheers

The keeper of the Dark-Lords Model


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