[Pro] Flexible Width Footer with Freeway 6.x

Doren, you cant drop and drop with inline style of working as it is only a
graphical representation of proper CSS layout design so it must be
done structurally . You can drag to resize boxes but layout is done
structurally. No 2 web masters would necessarily recreate the same page in
different ways. In a nutshell - you use align (float) and a combination of
margins, padding and aligning with floats.

Its one of those things that when explained sounds so much more complex
than it actually is - in reality its a simple and enjoyable ongoing puzzle
that a child could do and a part of the fun of web design.

Picture how a joiner might create the framework for a partition wall
complete with an exactly positioned door and window frame and all made
only using vertical and horizontal lengths of timber and you have the
principle exactly in a nutshell.

On 18 April 2013 19:45, Doren email@hidden wrote:

Thanks David. Question then. If you go the inline route how in the word do
you still have a drag-n-drop palette? I looked at the inline method again
and could no longer see where I could simply move stuff around willy-nilly
within my page. Is that true?


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Thank you Glynster! I completely understand what you’re saying. Thanks to everyone for their quick responses and help, it’s been extremely helpful and very appreciative!


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One good way to gain more control with inline layouts is to use tables which, for example, allow images that would otherwise float to be placed side by side.


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John, tables are considered a dated and problematic layout technique
nowadays for dozens of reasons and best avoided - thats not just my opinion
but the web design community as a whole. In fact, CSS was largely developed
precisely because of the limitations and pitfalls of tables as a layout
framework. CSS is layout uses essentially the same concept though.

On 18 April 2013 21:02, John Cooper email@hidden wrote:

One good way to gain more control with inline layouts is to use tables
which, for example, allow images that would otherwise float to be placed
side by side.


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Right, thanks for that. I don’t use inline layouts much myself owing to the lack of flexibility. The table was the only way I could find to align images (or an element) horizontally inline. Is there another way?


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One good way to gain more control with inline layouts is to use tables which, for example, allow images that would otherwise float to be placed side by side.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Tables are great - but not for structuring a page, or better said the “page-framework”. This is a method of the last century.

Tables are dedicated to structure different type of modules such as contact form, enumerations and stuff like that.

To avoid any other misunderstandings:

We are simply talking about positioning: either absolute (drop and drag) or relative (inflow) and there is nothing Softpress could do - cause these are CSS properties and even your workspace is following those rules.

Cheers

Thomas


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John, you’re not a million miles away from the basic idea with tables and
it did work but its limitations were thankfully replaced by CSS. You’ll
hear people talk about “divs” a lot. Well, in CSS a div is essentially
similar to the cell of a table except it is free-floating and can be
assigned/alligned or stretched anywhere (even overlapped) - but lets think
of it as a container or box - hence the “box method”. Each box will
contained some fo your content - a single image or a block of text for
example and you get to stack and order them to arrange your design.

Now imagine that we can give that box some very basic but complete
instructions. Firstly we can specify the size of a box from anywhere from a
full page down to a single pixel.

Think of your page as a frame into which you have to stack these boxes to
create your layout - but unlike tables every box is free (yay - free at
last!) and not stuck to a rigid table. So, like some crazy game of Tetris
(remember Tetris) you can specify the sizes of those boxes, the shape (all
rectangular though of course) and how they align to each other and stack.

However, here is the challenge, we can only basically tell each box to
align (float) left or right or add some invisible padding around it
(margins and padding). SO we have a puzzle we have to solve but its one a
kid could solve if you dont overthink it. Just stack the boxes to create
your layout. Download some templates to see how other people solve the
problem - its all very logical and intuitive if you clear your mind and
start again trust me - if I can learn CSS anyone can.

REALLY,

On 18 April 2013 21:18, Thomas Kimmich email@hidden wrote:

One good way to gain more control with inline layouts is to use tables
which, for example, allow images that would otherwise float to be placed
side by side.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Tables are great - but not for structuring a page, or
better said the “page-framework”. This is a method of the last century.

Tables are dedicated to structure different type of modules such as
contact form, enumerations and stuff like that.

To avoid any other misunderstandings:

We are simply talking about positioning: either absolute (drop and drag)
or relative (inflow) and there is nothing Softpress could do - cause these
are CSS properties and even your workspace is following those rules.

Cheers

Thomas


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And, I’ll give you a clue - yes you CAN use invisible boxes to hold the
visible ones in place :wink:

On 18 April 2013 21:32, Glyn Winter email@hidden wrote:

John, you’re not a million miles away from the basic idea with tables and
it did work but its limitations were thankfully replaced by CSS. You’ll
hear people talk about “divs” a lot. Well, in CSS a div is essentially
similar to the cell of a table except it is free-floating and can be
assigned/alligned or stretched anywhere (even overlapped) - but lets think
of it as a container or box - hence the “box method”. Each box will
contained some fo your content - a single image or a block of text for
example and you get to stack and order them to arrange your design.

Now imagine that we can give that box some very basic but complete
instructions. Firstly we can specify the size of a box from anywhere from a
full page down to a single pixel.

Think of your page as a frame into which you have to stack these boxes to
create your layout - but unlike tables every box is free (yay - free at
last!) and not stuck to a rigid table. So, like some crazy game of Tetris
(remember Tetris) you can specify the sizes of those boxes, the shape (all
rectangular though of course) and how they align to each other and stack.

However, here is the challenge, we can only basically tell each box to
align (float) left or right or add some invisible padding around it
(margins and padding). SO we have a puzzle we have to solve but its one a
kid could solve if you dont overthink it. Just stack the boxes to create
your layout. Download some templates to see how other people solve the
problem - its all very logical and intuitive if you clear your mind and
start again trust me - if I can learn CSS anyone can.

REALLY,

On 18 April 2013 21:18, Thomas Kimmich email@hidden wrote:

One good way to gain more control with inline layouts is to use tables
which, for example, allow images that would otherwise float to be placed
side by side.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Tables are great - but not for structuring a page, or
better said the “page-framework”. This is a method of the last century.

Tables are dedicated to structure different type of modules such as
contact form, enumerations and stuff like that.

To avoid any other misunderstandings:

We are simply talking about positioning: either absolute (drop and drag)
or relative (inflow) and there is nothing Softpress could do - cause these
are CSS properties and even your workspace is following those rules.

Cheers

Thomas


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Glynster: many thanks. Actually, now that I think about it wouldn’t placing images side by side but aligned ‘baseline’ instead of float jus solve the problem. And to address your clue: would grouping the images keep them aligned?

On a general note (and forget this if it is too big a question for tis thread) what are the relative pros and cons of inline v non-inline layouts?


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The quick-n-dirty of it is essentially this:

An inline layout gives you a near bullet-proof layout that will flex vertically to accommodate any amount of content. It can also be made to stretch horizontally so the entire layout flows with the width of the browser window, also known as a “liquid” layout. The biggest advantage is its adaptability.

Despite what you may hear an inline layout isn’t necessarily more restrictive in design terms than a non-inline, but it absolutely does require more planning, more creative problem-solving and a deeper understanding of CSS to pull-off certain designs that might otherwise be easier to do when simply drawing boxes on the page. This is the biggest hurdle to overcome if you’re new to CSS.

And if you’re using a CMS then an inline layout is almost a must-have.

Todd

On a general note (and forget this if it is too big a question for tis thread) what are the relative pros and cons of inline v non-inline layouts?


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John, OK, time for the long explanation.

I think we just all like to overcomplicate things and in fact the
principles are very simple if we relate them to things we already know.
Whilst it is easy for people to say how “powerful” CSS is and how it can be
“inline”, “fluid” and relative" at the end of the day mate it is all
passionate speak for some very easy to comprehend stuff. Bear in mind that
the Global positioning System can pint-point anywhere on the whole planet
using half a dozen co-ordinates (disclaimer in the post) so let me put it
like this - this is figuratively and fairly literally how it works.

  1. you browser is basically a 2D map of pixels (x and y values). So if you
    have a 1 pixel wide pin you can tell your browser exactly where to place it
    using just a couple of values. So chuck it a couple of values and bang
    there is your exact point - simple.

  2. The “normal” way Freeway works is to use what is called (in CSS terms)
    “absolute positioning” which does exactly what we mentioned in point 1 -
    i.e. just like a GPS system it gives 2 values (x and y - or sideways and
    up/downwards to be totally clear). Imagine your design is made by literally
    pinning cut out sections of your design onto a pin board and your pin goes
    into an exact point depending on the x and y value - that is how Freeway
    works straight out of the box - absolute positioning - and it works
    perfectly. Thats why with FW you can shimmy up your images and text one
    pixel at a time with complete accuracy. Sounds ideal :slight_smile: -But there is a
    downside :frowning: heres just a couple of them…

    1. not all browsers are the same shape and size (we can control for that
      to a large degree but it still sucks when your design is wider than the
      screen)
    1. (and most problematically…) what if later you decide to add more
      text to your webpage or a bigger image - kind of sucks when every single
      item in your webpage is basically bolted to the screen with an exact
      coordinate doesn’t it and yet you dont have space for more text. What you
      will find is that your site is a rigid, stiff framework, unable to respond
      to browsers and unable to budge up out of the way when the little one says
      rollover.
  1. so enter CSS proper (we’re skipping over 10 years of html table layouts
    here - we dont talk about that anymore, we’ve had grief counselling and
    moved on) and by “CSS proper” (made up term - dont quote it) I mean using
    the full range of layout controls in CSS. 100% Absolute positioning is fine
    but your webpage is basically nothing more than a big rigid image with
    electronically readable text at the end of the day. There is a better way
  • some call it elegant and powerful, and like all great ideas it is very
    simple when you get your head around it.

If you imagine your browser window as potentially infinite (because it
could stretch in any direction depending on what you add to it) so we first
wanna draw a page with borders so we have a framework to work in - we do
this with css by creating the first big empty box. But we cleverly make
this an elastic box that will stretch bigger when we add more stuff to it.
We can decide to make it only stretch length ways (thats generally a good
idea) to give it some kind of order.

Now, in order to add anything into our box we first have to wrap it in a
box of its own - this is literally how CSS thinks, it calls them DIVS
(short for divisions) and they’re blocks of content on your site.

So, if you made it this far here is how I would build a simple page in FW -
and without code - we’re just getting concepts here…

  1. I create a box 960 pixels wide and I centre it in the browser - the
    height is elastic.
  2. I wanna add a title in it so double click in the box and insert it -
    html pages work just llike word processors - left to right , and top to
    bottom - so it sits neatly in the top left corner. Freeway has kindly ut
    this in a box called a DIV - so I centre the box in the screen (I have a
    control for align). But it is too near the top and I want it further down
    the page - hitting return is an ugly way to do it cause its too inaccurate
    I have a few better options. I can add some padding to the top of my box or
    I can add a margin to top of the box to shimmy the text down and to put the
    title exactly where I want it. Also, if I wanted, instead I could insert an
    empty box above it and size the empty box to fill the space between the top
    of my browser and the title to get the title exactly where want it - any
    of the 3 will work and you will discover the pros and cons of each as you
    play. That mate, is how CSS layout works!

My advice is dont make any real websites - just play for a while - its
quicker and you will learn more.

Try this…

  1. open a new freeway document - size it any size

  2. double click on the page to make the cursor flash (this will insert any
    code you enter inline - i.e. not absolute) because it will now flow with
    the content you enter. Insert a html box and align it centre. That is now
    one div box nested within another div box and is proper CSS inline code -
    boxes within boxes. Double click again until the cursor flashes and insert
    a few more boxes and colour just one of them

3 Play with stretching and aligning various boxes in such a way as to
position the coloured box in different places in the browser to your will.
You can enter text and images in the boxes and watch how they stretch and
push each other out of the way.

Now, finally, realise this…

You have created PERFECT CSS code “proper” in doing this

Whats more amazing is that the only CSS code required to create a DIV box
with the word sausage in it is this…

sausage

And to put the box inside another box is just this…

sausage

A simple concept and a simple solution I’m sure you will agree - the code
soon gets long and complex but in principle it is very basic. The even
better news is that you own a fantastic piece of software that creates all
the code for you and does a very good job of it without teaching you bad
coding principles. Mast FW and learning code will be very easy!

Numerous folks here have written brilliant tutorials on how to perform this
kind of laying out in FW in practical terms so check them out.

On 18 April 2013 23:21, Todd email@hidden wrote:

The quick-n-dirty of it is essentially this:

An inline layout gives you a near bullet-proof layout that will flex
vertically to accommodate any amount of content. It can also be made to
stretch horizontally so the entire layout flows with the width of the
browser window, also known as a “liquid” layout. The biggest advantage is
its adaptability.

Despite what you may hear an inline layout isn’t necessarily more
restrictive in design terms than a non-inline, but it absolutely does
require more planning, more creative problem-solving and a deeper
understanding of CSS to pull-off certain designs that might otherwise be
easier to do when simply drawing boxes on the page. This is the biggest
hurdle to overcome if you’re new to CSS.

And if you’re using a CMS then an inline layout is almost a must-have.

Todd
http://xiiro.com

On a general note (and forget this if it is too big a question for tis
thread) what are the relative pros and cons of inline v non-inline layouts?


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It was a dark and stormy night that began when I naively tried to help The Doren develop non-inline flexible footage but, mysteriously, it never came to pass because my lack of style was a horror story and I had created a monster. As dawn broke I found I had morphed into an extremely appreciative child of The Glynster being fed raw material. Am I to be driven off my block layout and brought back inline? I was given a box; and inside that box was another box; and inside that box was what looked like a sausage - but somehow it was more fluid and elastic than the night before…

In awe and gratitude I shall continue with the experiment.


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I’m still bewildered why there hasn’t been an Action developed by anyone. I don’t have the skill set at all, but I would pay good $$$ for this Action. It’s such a popular & awesome aesthetically pleasing feature to a website. I’ll start it off by offering $20 for such an Action. Any Dev’s interested?


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Am I right in saying that what Doren wants (i.e, an item that stretches to 100% of the browser width without being inline) is possible.

I think I did it by selecting Width = Fixed% and Size = 100% but Doren could replicate it.


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I think you are correct John, and, yes, I was able to do it by your advice if the Page was Align = None, alas, I wanted the Page to be Align = Center. This seems to be the issue.


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This has been a fascinating thread to follow, I do so enjoy all your ideas
and discussions.

Sillies, there are no such thing as “pages”… let alone centered ones. There
are, to be sure, windows or whatever the browser is called - and content…
which can be centered.

So your real quest is to center your content. I know you think the big
box-like thing you see in Freeway Pro’s workspace is a “page” but I assure
you it is not. It is a fiction or construct for the sake of the workspace.

Try this: set your “page” to align = none and width = flexible. Give it a
background color of whatever you like. Make sure you are working in layered
(sometimes called CSS) mode. Now, in the workspace draw an html box and
drag the edges out to the limits of your “page”. In the Inspector, set that
item to align = center then color it with a different, preferably
contrasting color. Preview and you see centered content! Everything layered
onto that first box will now ride it to the center.

With an inline layout, I set my page to align = none, width = flexible.
Then I double click the “page” to get the text insert cursor, and I insert
an html item instead. Immediately set the width to available - I know it
looks as if it’s only as wide as the “page” but it actually will be as wide
as the browser window. I click into that first box and insert another html
item, set the alignment on that one to centered and the width to a
max-width of whatever my “page” width is. Then using the Site/Page window
to select the first box and set its height to flexible. This way you have
centered content that is flexible.


Ernie Simpson, aka The Big Erns

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:55 PM, Doren email@hidden wrote:

I think you are correct John, and, yes, I was able to do it by your advice
if the Page was Align = None, alas, I wanted the Page to be Align = Center.
This seems to be the issue.


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Yes, I have tried those 2 methods and they both work fine, but it’s still defeating one of the biggest purposes of using Freeway for designing. Being able to have a free-flowing palette where you can drag-n-drop and move around objects to design the perfect layout is one of the greatest powers of Freeway. I think they call it “free-form”. These methods stick me within an HTML object where that feature is non-existant. I’ve come across plenty of code online showing how to create a style sheet and div’s to create this feature, but I’m not knowledgeable enough to know how to implement it. I understand the “Page” aspect, I’m just using Freeway terminology since we’re chatting on FreewayTalk.


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Okay, well - good luck with that!


Ernie Simpson

On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Doren email@hidden wrote:

Yes, I have tried those 2 methods and they both work fine, but it’s still
defeating one of the biggest purposes of using Freeway for designing. Being
able to have a free-flowing palette where you can drag-n-drop and move
around objects to design the perfect layout is one of the greatest powers
of Freeway. I think they call it “free-form”. These methods stick me within
an HTML object where that feature is non-existant. I’ve come across plenty
of code online showing how to create a style sheet and div’s to create this
feature, but I’m not knowledgeable enough to know how to implement it. I
understand the “Page” aspect, I’m just using Freeway terminology since
we’re chatting on FreewayTalk.


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I know. LOL Probably not possible. I appreciate your techniques and am already using them on one of my pages for this new site. Thank you!


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Doren, might be an obvious point here, but you are making sure that the outermost box is set to 100% aren’t you? A box set to be 100% wide can only be 100% wide of the box that it is contained in! If you want a box to be 100% the width of your BROWSER it needs to be set as either…

A) a sole and free box on “the page” - i.e. not contained by another box

or…

B) the outermost box in a set of nested boxes

or…

C) itself with another box (or set of boxes) which are also set to be 100% wide and have its width set SPECIFICALLY under the “dimensions” pallet it FW - if you try to set its width to a greater one under the measurement section of the action pallet FW will complain that you have a smaller previous value set elsewhere.

So, if you have a


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