[Pro] Softpress Website

Hi,

Although this is about Freeway (both versions), my point is about the claims for Freeway on softpress’ website and not a problem I have with the software.

Softpress claims equality with Dreamweaver in its ability to produce quality designed web pages, and in its web site, says “Absolutely no coding required” from a user of Freeway; ‘Freeway Talk’ has much mention of the WYSIWYG nature of the beast.

Why then does Freeway Talk have over 1400 topics, the majority of which involve advanced (some would say very advanced) instruction, from some of the leading javascript and CSS coders in the business, mostly to achieve effects in web sites, probably written with Dreamweaver.

I can understand that softpress want to promote the absence of an accessible and editable code output as an ASSET, rather than a hindrance, but if a web site maker has to add hand code to a Freeway doc. to produce some effect obtainable from using 100% hand code from Dreamweaver, then I think their present claim above is a tad disingenuous.

Bob King


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but if a web site maker has to add hand code to a Freeway doc. to produce some effect

I think that you are missing the point here.

There are many, many things that you can do with FW that do NOT require any hand coding at all - more than enough to produce very whizzy web sites without lifting the bonnet.

The web by its very nature is a volatile place and people are creating content and effects all the time that some folk may want to include in their sites.

FW, like any application, has an upgrade/development path that cannot hope to keep up with the speed of this but you can be sure that the guys at SP Towers are doing their best to create actions and improvements that do mean that these effects can be duplicated in FW without having to resort to code.

There just aren’t any applications that can do everything.

David


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On Oct 14, 2011, at 4:18 PM, Bob King wrote:

Why then does Freeway Talk have over 1400 topics, the majority of which involve advanced (some would say very advanced) instruction, from some of the leading javascript and CSS coders in the business, mostly to achieve effects in web sites, probably written with Dreamweaver.

The difference between the two applications is that while Dreamweaver conflates “layout code” with “effects code”, Freeway abstracts the layout away absolutely, and in many cases, makes the effects a non-code event too. The primary benefit to the designer is that any effects thus added are object-oriented, rather than hand-edited maintenance nightmares waiting to trip you up when the layout changes. Copy an extended element from one page, paste it on another page, and not only does it land in precisely the same place on the page, it also contains all of the extended attributes you added to the original – Actions, extended code, etc.

I can understand that softpress want to promote the absence of an accessible and editable code output as an ASSET, rather than a hindrance, but if a web site maker has to add hand code to a Freeway doc. to produce some effect obtainable from using 100% hand code from Dreamweaver, then I think their present claim above is a tad disingenuous.

I believe that Softpress’s point here is that “friends don’t let friends write layout code”. And frankly, why would you want to? Layout code is boring plumbing work, nothing terribly creative in the grand scheme of things.

Unless you are hand-coding (in which case Dreamweaver is largely wasted, a good text editor is better IMO) then Dreamweaver makes some awful Cuisinart-code, because it uses the HTML as the only record of the layout, whereas Freeway stores the page layout in an object model based on desktop publishing principles.

When you move something on the page in Freeway, the application doesn’t bother trying to figure out how to change the HTML to reflect the new layout. It just stores the new location of the object. The only thing it notes about the HTML itself is that it is now “dirty” or out of date. The next time you publish, the old HTML is thrown out and re-created afresh. The recursive algorithms that relentlessly convert any given layout to the tightest and most bulletproof layout possible are simply run, and the result of a 1px shift on the design view can be a 90% rewrite of the original page.

Dreamweaver rejigs the actual HTML to make the new layout – based on the original HTML. The result is often a mess.

Walter


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In layman’s terms if you want to drag and drop, resize, style and position there is non quicker to work ‘out of the box’ without using any code to build a website. Yet if you want to push it further Freeway gives you the ability to do so to create virtually anything you want.

David

On 14 Oct 2011, at 21:34, Walter Lee Davis email@hidden wrote:

On Oct 14, 2011, at 4:18 PM, Bob King wrote:

Why then does Freeway Talk have over 1400 topics, the majority of which involve advanced (some would say very advanced) instruction, from some of the leading javascript and CSS coders in the business, mostly to achieve effects in web sites, probably written with Dreamweaver.

The difference between the two applications is that while Dreamweaver conflates “layout code” with “effects code”, Freeway abstracts the layout away absolutely, and in many cases, makes the effects a non-code event too. The primary benefit to the designer is that any effects thus added are object-oriented, rather than hand-edited maintenance nightmares waiting to trip you up when the layout changes. Copy an extended element from one page, paste it on another page, and not only does it land in precisely the same place on the page, it also contains all of the extended attributes you added to the original – Actions, extended code, etc.

I can understand that softpress want to promote the absence of an accessible and editable code output as an ASSET, rather than a hindrance, but if a web site maker has to add hand code to a Freeway doc. to produce some effect obtainable from using 100% hand code from Dreamweaver, then I think their present claim above is a tad disingenuous.

I believe that Softpress’s point here is that “friends don’t let friends write layout code”. And frankly, why would you want to? Layout code is boring plumbing work, nothing terribly creative in the grand scheme of things.

Unless you are hand-coding (in which case Dreamweaver is largely wasted, a good text editor is better IMO) then Dreamweaver makes some awful Cuisinart-code, because it uses the HTML as the only record of the layout, whereas Freeway stores the page layout in an object model based on desktop publishing principles.

When you move something on the page in Freeway, the application doesn’t bother trying to figure out how to change the HTML to reflect the new layout. It just stores the new location of the object. The only thing it notes about the HTML itself is that it is now “dirty” or out of date. The next time you publish, the old HTML is thrown out and re-created afresh. The recursive algorithms that relentlessly convert any given layout to the tightest and most bulletproof layout possible are simply run, and the result of a 1px shift on the design view can be a 90% rewrite of the original page.

Dreamweaver rejigs the actual HTML to make the new layout – based on the original HTML. The result is often a mess.

Walter


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Boy! I didn’t expect such a knee-jerk explosive reaction.

PLEASE believe me, when I say that I love Freeway Pro 5.5 AND it’s supportive community of Freeway Talk AND I have tried and grown out of Rapidweaver, tried and grown grey with Dreamweaver - in the world of web site building, it’s better than sliced bread!

I condense my initial mail to its core point, viz.:

“Softpress claims in its web site,“Absolutely no coding required” from a user of Freeway.
I think their present claim above is a tad disingenuous.”

Dare I say, that it is you, in fact, who, ‘have missed the point’:

“Absolutely”, means ‘without exception’.

The extent of your replies make clear that in fact there are MANY exceptions. I know and accept that.

Freeway Pro doesn’t need hyperbole - it’s good enough in its own right.

Bob King


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Bob,

Why would you be surprised with any and all reactions, knee-jerk or otherwise, when making your disingenuous assertion?

The test to the Softpress statement is “can one design a website - a modern, up-to-date website without coding”. The obvious, unequivocal answer is absolutely.

Bryan


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If you are going to be critical of the correct usage of the word absolutely you should perhaps choose your own words and metaphores with more care? I thought the responses were considered and thoughtful. Not knee-jerk nor explosive. N


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At 19:21 -0400 14/10/11, Bob King wrote:

Boy! I didn’t expect such a knee-jerk explosive reaction.

PLEASE believe me, when I say that I love Freeway Pro 5.5 AND it’s
supportive community of Freeway Talk AND I have tried and grown out
of Rapidweaver, tried and grown grey with Dreamweaver - in the
world of web site building, it’s better than sliced bread!

I condense my initial mail to its core point, viz.:

“Softpress claims in its web site,³Absolutely no coding required²
from a user of Freeway.
I think their present claim above is a tad disingenuous.”

Dare I say, that it is you, in fact, who, ‘have missed the point’:

“Absolutely”, means ‘without exception’.

The extent of your replies make clear that in fact there are MANY
exceptions. I know and accept that.

Freeway Pro doesn’t need hyperbole - it’s good enough in its own right.

If there are any applications for doing anything easily, that can not
also be used in more complex extended ways, I think they’d be seen as
restrictive. What we see on this list are some people who need
initial help with the basic ³Absolutely no coding required² Freeway,
some more who are needing help with actions, and some who are trying
to push the Freeway envelope with some coding. We probably hear
nothing from the majority who just understand the manuals and use the
product with ³Absolutely no coding required².

David


David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
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Bryan,

couldn’t agree more with you, IF you are saying that with Freeway you can, uniquely, “design a website - a modern, up-to-date website without coding” - Freeway is a wonderful program. My slight beef is with the advertising. I played devil’s advocate, and placed my self in the position of some one who wanted to design a web site ‘just like www.fantastic_effects_and_wondrous_gizmos.com’, but couldn’t code to save his/life.

From what the advert unequivocally said, he would gladly lay out his £100+, only to find, on reading post after post in Freeway Talk, that the desired effects and gizmos could ONLY be achieved by the dreaded coding, and feel, dreadfully cheated

Sorry to be such a nit picker, but I have seen so much ‘economy with the truth’, in advertizing, that I am sad to see it from Softpress.

nightingale,

I am distressed that you assert my criticism of the correct usage of the word absolutely to be hypocritical.

I am very sorry that you seem offended by my use of the phrases- knee jerk and explosive - mea culpa.

I hope that you understand from my response to Bryan, that my criticism was with the best interest of Softpress and would-be buyers of Freeway in mind.

Bob.


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I’m not in the least offended Bob. Nor I hope assertive. Pedantic maybe - which leads me to ask if really are distressed? : -) And yeh I understand what you are saying (which doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with you mind). N


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I also use FWP with absolutely no coding and have produced many fine
websites for satisfied clients
Chris Jones
Plush, Oregon

On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Richard Lowther <email@hidden

wrote:

I’m not in the least offended Bob. Nor I hope assertive. Pedantic maybe -
which leads me to ask if really are distressed? : -) And yeh I
understand what you are saying (which doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with
you mind). N


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Bob,

“… slight beef…” “… post after post…” Really? Who is being disingenuous now? One wonders how the devil he missed the 30 day free trial that a reasonable person would gladly accept in order to avoid any dread.

Bryan


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