Rogue Diagonals/Diagonals on Grid

Legacy Intaglio
1

I’m using Intaglio for creating schematic maps of railway networks, which means working with lots of graphics and lots of horizontal/vertical/45 degree diagonal lines. The problem I am having is that when I extend/shrink diagonals (using shift), or even copy and paste, they quite often go off true, e.g. they change to 44.5 degrees. These can be fixed, redrawn or by changing x/y dimensions in the geometry window, but I am finding myself correcting a lot of diagonals in this way. Is this a problem that other people are having.

When working with grid snap on, horizontal and vertical lines work fine, but I need also to link 45 degree diagonals to, say, horizontal lines via arcs. The grid snap takes care of the horizontal-arc connection, but the diagonal-arc connection is harder. Is there a reliable way to do this?

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2

Hey Max, like Nick has previously pointed out, Intaglio isn’t really a
CAD application, which is, I think, what you really need :slight_smile:

Have you tried giving Ribbonsoft’s QCad a go? You can do all the
things you suggest here with relative ease. QCad
costs $28- making it affordable just to ‘try out’

I think it is best to leave Intaglio to what it’s best at, graphical
illustrations (NOT to be confused with CAD!!).

Tom
On 3 Jul 2008, at 14:42, Max Roberts wrote:

I’m using Intaglio for creating schematic maps of railway networks,
which means working with lots of graphics and lots of horizontal/
vertical/45 degree diagonal lines. The problem I am having is that
when I extend/shrink diagonals (using shift), or even copy and
paste, they quite often go off true, e.g. they change to 44.5
degrees. These can be fixed, redrawn or by changing x/y dimensions
in the geometry window, but I am finding myself correcting a lot of
diagonals in this way. Is this a problem that other people are having.

When working with grid snap on, horizontal and vertical lines work
fine, but I need also to link 45 degree diagonals to, say,
horizontal lines via arcs. The grid snap takes care of the
horizontal-arc connection, but the diagonal-arc connection is
harder. Is there a reliable way to do this?

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3

I’ve used a lot of graphics packages, and I have a lot of experience at
creating maps, and Intaglio is perfect for what I want. The
London Underground map might look complicated, but really its trivially
easy from a vector perspective, just get a few lines to line up and
connect together. Why would I need a CAD package? Most people in my field
are using Illustrator, Freehand or Correl Draw for this. Thats just silly.

If Intaglio is not suitable for any CAD applications at all, why does it
have a grid and smart guides?

All I am asking is that diagonal lines stay diagonal, and that there is an
easy way to join them up to arcs precisely. Not a difficult task.

Max

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4

On Jul 3, 2008, at 10:28 AM, Tom Fenn wrote:

Have you tried giving Ribbonsoft’s QCad a go? You can do all the
things you suggest here with relative ease.

Just took a look. I thought it was impressive.

QCad costs $28- making it affordable just to ‘try out’

$38 but you can try it for 100 hours.

I think it is best to leave Intaglio to what it’s best at, graphical
illustrations (NOT to be confused with CAD!!).

I agree … but there is a difference between wishing for new features
in the CAD direction and getting 44.5 for 45 degrees. Of course, that
kind of precision would probably exact its own price.

Ah, why can’t we have everything for nothing?

Regards
–schremmer

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5

Ah! The London Underground Map!

A design very close to my heart. My father is a Dr of topology you know!
I did two parts of my BSc design thesis on the design of the Map-
wonderful stuff!

You could freeze the line, and then scaling the rest. That may work,
and because
this is topology, it doesn’t really matter that much does it anyway,
just as longs as
it fits within specifications.

On 3 Jul 2008, at 15:44, Maxwell Roberts wrote:

The
London Underground map might look complicated

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6

Lets get some graphics up, show everyone what I mean.

Here everything is hunky dory, just how it should be:

http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mjr/alligned.jpg

Now, I do some work elsewhere on the map, for a few days, I don’t go near this part, but when I print it out, its done this:

http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mjr/notagain.jpg

Look at Feltham, bottom left, its all gone wong.

Otherwise, Intaglio is absolutely perfect, it could have been made for making maps.

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7

Sigh. Yes I know. $38? They must have put the price up- but I’ve
fooled even the best design draftspeople with this software.
Quite impressive really.

Presently there are some really good bargains to be had out there, but
most of them tend to be 2D only
Sketchup is good, because the basic version is free, and I’m currently
beta testing another which is ACIS based
called ViaCAD. For the price, ViaCAD is really something.

On 3 Jul 2008, at 15:51, Alain Schremmer wrote:

Ah, why can’t we have everything for nothing?

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8

Well that’s really great Max, and I presume this is you?;

http://www.essex.ac.uk/psychology/psy/PEOPLE/roberts/roberts.html

How can I even suggest replying to you when you send rather nasty
emails to me off list?;

Quote; “I’ve just taken a look at QCAD and it is absolutely ghastly,
please don’t make suggestions like this when you don’t have a clue
what I am doing and don’t know what my needs are.”

All I was doing was trying to help, because I too have had similar
problems.

Perhaps I won’t bother?

Tom

On 3 Jul 2008, at 16:07, Max Roberts wrote:

Otherwise, Intaglio is absolutely perfect, it could have been made
for making maps.

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9

Yes, thats me, I sent the reply off list because I felt you might prefer a ticking off off the board than in public.

Your comment was really unhelpful because (a) it risked taking the thread off in an irrelevant direction, and (b) its really not useful to say to someone, ‘I know what’s best for you’ when you don’t actually know what they are trying to do. Better to find out a bit more before proclaiming that they don’t have the sense to know what sort of software is right for the task.

EVERY map professional out there, and I really do know top professionals who do work for ATOC and TfL, uses vector packages for this task, they do not use CAD.

If other people are having similar problems, thats actually quite serious, it doesn’t matter what the task is, if vector objects are getting corrupted under certain circumstances, then whether it is a map or an illustration, then its going to cause trouble. I’ve certainly not come across this sort of object corruption in Canvas, Illustrator, Freehand, Superpaint, or ClarisDraw.

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10

On Jul 3, 2008, at 11:07 AM, Max Roberts wrote:

Look at Feltham, bottom left, its all gone wong.

I had wondered about that half degree! Indeed!

Otherwise, Intaglio is absolutely perfect, it could have been made
for making maps.

Funny: I thought Intaglio had been made for drawing mathematical
illustrations.

I think that there are a few other small bugs but haven’t had the
time to track them down as they are not interfering with the drawings
themselves.

Regards
–schremmer

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11

On Jul 3, 2008, at 11:09 AM, Tom Fenn wrote:

Sigh. Yes I know. $38? They must have put the price up

Probably not: the dollar has been sinking fast.

Regards
–schremmer

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12

Well, mathematical illustrations are perhaps not that far removed from schematic maps.

On the web pages of this researcher:

http://i11www.iti.uni-karlsruhe.de/algo/members/index.php?algouser=noelle&pagetype=research

You will find this document:

http://i11www.iti.uni-karlsruhe.de/members/noelle/pub/n-admm-tr05.pdf

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13

On Jul 3, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Max Roberts wrote:

Yes, thats me, I sent the reply off list because I felt you might
prefer a ticking off off the board than in public.

Being a self-exiled French in the US, I am not sure what “ticking
off” connotes. Still, it seems to me that a “ticking off” was
probably a bit of an overreaction to “a CAD application, which is, I
think, what you really need” to which I would have probably responded
with something like “Ever done that kind of map?”

Your comment was really unhelpful because (a) it risked taking the
thread off in an irrelevant direction,

True but this old man doesn’t think that even an occasional highjack,
let alone the risk thereof, is worth the risk of bad blood on a list.

and (b) its really not useful to say to someone, ‘I know what’s
best for you’ when you don’t actually know what they are trying to
do. Better to find out a bit more before proclaiming that they
don’t have the sense to know what sort of software is right for the
task.

Absolutely correct but then “Nobody is perfect”.

EVERY map professional out there, and I really do know top
professionals who do work for ATOC and TfL, uses vector packages
for this task, they do not use CAD.

Nobody is arguing that case. (Least of all myself.)

If other people are having similar problems, thats actually quite
serious, it doesn’t matter what the task is, if vector objects are
getting corrupted under certain circumstances, then whether it is a
map or an illustration, then its going to cause trouble. I’ve
certainly not come across this sort of object corruption in Canvas,
Illustrator, Freehand, Superpaint, or ClarisDraw.

Absolutely true and I would have filed it as a bug.

Regards to all
–schremmer

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14

On Jul 3, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Max Roberts wrote:

Well, mathematical illustrations are perhaps not that far removed
from schematic maps.

On the web pages of this researcher:

http://i11www.iti.uni-karlsruhe.de/algo/members/index.php?
algouser=noelle&pagetype=research

You will find this document:

http://i11www.iti.uni-karlsruhe.de/members/noelle/pub/n-admm-tr05.pdf

Well, mine are a bit more mundane but in the same context: LaTeX.

Best regards
–schremme

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15

I also design maps that look like this, try doing that on a CAD package. This one was done with Canvas, much better editing of handles:

http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mjr/paris_curved.jpg

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16

On Jul 3, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Max Roberts wrote:

I also design maps that look like this, try doing that on a CAD
package. This one was done with Canvas, much better editing of
handles:

http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mjr/paris_curved.jpg

Very, very nice — and absolutely no need to rub the CAD in. (By the
way, I hated Canvas.)

Also by the way, I always liked the maps of the Parisian Metro a lot
better than the schematic maps of the London Underground but, alas,
the RATP is inching towards the schematic.

But I am going deep into Off Topic Territory.

Apologetic regards
–schremmer

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17

Well that just shows what little you actually do know, because all 2D
CAD is vector based.

But this is still no way to conduct yourself to anyone (academic or
non-academic) on or off list.

I’ve certainly not come across this sort of object corruption in
Canvas, Illustrator, Freehand, Superpaint, or ClarisDraw.

So why not use these packages instead?

From my experience as ahem, a professional, I do not know one single
piece of software that doesn’t have at least 1 bug.

On 3 Jul 2008, at 16:31, Max Roberts wrote:

EVERY map professional out there, and I really do know top
professionals who do work for ATOC and TfL, uses vector packages for
this task, they do not use CAD.

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18

Alain, it is worth reading about the Swiss mathematician Leonhard
Euler. Euler solved the knotty problem of the 7 bridges of Konigsberg,
using topology. Beck was later known to design the London Underground
Map, but many assumed his design was based on that of an electrical
circuit, which I suppose was slightly up to a point (pardon the pun),
but had more in common with the findings of Euler. Worth reading up
on :slight_smile:
On 3 Jul 2008, at 17:43, Alain Schremmer wrote:

I always liked the maps of the Parisian Metro a lot
better than the schematic maps of the London Underground but, alas,
the RATP is inching towards the schematic.

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19

On Jul 3, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Tom Fenn wrote:

Well that just shows what little you actually do know, because all 2D
CAD is vector based.

But this is still no way to conduct yourself to anyone (academic or
non-academic) on or off list.

I’ve certainly not come across this sort of object corruption in
Canvas, Illustrator, Freehand, Superpaint, or ClarisDraw.

So why not use these packages instead?

I can think of any number of reasons.

Aside from that, I think that it might be gracious of you—and in the
interest of all—to let go. As much as I like to have the last words,
occasionally even I realize that it is not necessarily a good thing.

Anyway, it seems we all agree that Intaglio is a good thing even
though not perfect.

Regards
–schremmer

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20

OT!!! OT!!! OT!!! OT!!!

On Jul 3, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Tom Fenn wrote:

[I]t is worth reading about the Swiss mathematician Leonhard
Euler.

As a professional mathematician, I cannot but wholeheartedly agree
with you. :-))

In fact, Euler is, with Poincaré, the mathematician I most relate to.
(But I had my Bourbaki moment of folly too.)

Regards
–schremmer

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