As others have also pointed out, when working with a 15" display of a laptop, the cluttering caused by all the small windows is very annoying and decreases productivity.
Even on large displays, it is very questionable that this is the best user interface. In my view, NisusWriter provides a good example of a “clean” interface, in which all functionality is essentially available from a “drawer”.
It might be that Nick does not want to show the “secret weapon” of a new user interface in the beta releases of version 3, and that something surprising will show up in the final release, however I am not holding my breadth…
FWIW, the early development of Intaglio was done exclusively on a 15" screen. I’m sensitive to the problem of using screen real estate effectively, but it’s an area filled with compromises. You can only control so many things with a certain amount of screen.
There are a number of options to help you along with the inspector palettes. You can rearrange them to suit how you work and use the right mouse button to close one while opening another. IMO, drawers aren’t a useful solution for Intaglio because there are just too many things that need controls. I think as a UI feature they’ve peaked and are being slowly phased out of new and redesigned apps. For example, I can’t think of any current Apple apps that use them.
FWIW, the early development of Intaglio was done exclusively on a
15" screen. I’m sensitive to the problem of using screen real
estate effectively,
I work here on my 15" powerbook. Space is tight. Some of the palettes
are a bit roomy though. perhaps some of the spacing of elements could
be tightened up.
I’ve never been able
to increase the size of the dimensioning text in Intaglio either.
Select Dimensions from the Layout menu, and then select the “Show Fonts”
button from within the drop down window. Now change the font size, and it
will stick for that document, but only as long as it is open. Closing the
document reverts the settings back to default. My personal belief is that
the preferences should follow the document so you would not have to remember
what they were each and every time you open it. I don’t think you should
have to globally change every future document just to keep the settings for
one.
As far as I know the size of dimension text is correctly saved with the document. You can also apply your settings for use in new documents. I don’t understand your comments about changes sticking and preferences.
I can use the Gradient tool and colour swatches can be added to the Library, but it would be better if Intaglio had a Gradient palette like the one in ClarisWorks and LightningDraw. Both these programs have a useful set of pre-made gradients which can be easily modified. To keep it out of the way, the gradients palette could be placed in the Favorites bar at the top of the Intaglio window.
Several of the changes in version 3 center around the idea of being able to save and reuse things. For that the library is the main tool. I suppose in a sense you’re asking to be able to customize the toolbar fill color item, which is something that can be considered for a future version.
Intaglio 3’s docked palettes are a real improvement. When they’re collapsed, the desktop is less cluttered than before.
For the record, this isn’t new in version 3. Those palette management features have been available for quite some time.
I tried dragging palettes to other palettes, and nothing happened.
Should it really
be that difficult?
Check out Powercadd 7 and see how PC7 uses docking palettes. Intaglio
should be as easy as this imo.
On 5 Jun 2008, at 11:56, IanB wrote:
n case you havent discovered this:
With the palettes displayed, click on a title and drag it onto
another title. When a blue line appears, release the mouse. The
palette is repositioned.
I am disappointed to read a comment from Nick in another thread (www.freewaytalk.net/thread/view/33851), that Intaglio is not going to incorporate more basic features of 2D CAD programs. In this field, and to the best of my knowledge, ClarisCAD is a reference in terms of “power with ease of use” that has not been recreated by any affordable application for OS X 10.5.
That in the early 1990’s ClarisDraw and ClarisCAD had to be 2 different and separate programs is understandable, given the capabilities of the hardware and OS of the time.
In my view, in 2008, that sort of separation is artificial, and I am still searching for such an OS X application. I had been hoping that it would be Intaglio, but after reading Nick’s comments, I guess I should start looking for it elsewhere …
For the record I didn’t say that Intaglio won’t ever incorporate more CAD features. The chances are good that new CAD features will be added over time.
This thread is a good example of how thin a line Intaglio is trying to walk. Some people want better dimensioning or other CAD related tools. Some want better text handling or predefined gradients or other graphics tools. Everybody wants better user interface that packs more information on the screen without sacrificing legibility or convenience.
Intaglio has evolved considerably in the last few years based on the feedback of its users. The plan is to continue on that path so this type of discussion is always helpful.
for what its worth, that is something I’ve always loved about
Intaglio, that you don’t need to read the manual to get it
working and to get good results quickly. I do think that the work
space ease of use could be improved, but as it
stands, Intaglio is a far better example than other so called ‘Mac
applications’, that look like PC cross-over nightmares
I don’t really care for CAD in Intaglio any more, because I’ve found
Punch Software’s ViaCAD, and ViaCAD, and its bigger
sister, Shark FX are utter dynamite. Both these apps are written as
proper Cocoa Mac apps- ie making full use of Apple services etc.
Basically, if you can use Intaglio, you can use ViaCAD. VC has got
both 2D and 3D ability, it also uses the same Spatial 3D kernel
developed by UGS/Siemens and used in software such as Solidworks/ Pro
Engineer and Pro Desktop, yet VC only costs $99!
Sorry for the VC plug Nick, but perhaps some here who wanted CAD tools
in Intaglio, could find VC useful :¬)
Well, then. Today it works fine; when I penned my comments I could not
get the settings to stick. Tried it multiple times. Maybe a wonky preference
file - I don’t know.
I tried three times today with both a newly-created file and an existing
file and experienced no failures. Preferences stuck. So I’ll take back my
remark. I’m baffled, but glad.
on 6/9/08 4:42 PM, Nick at email@hidden wrote:
I’ve never been able
to increase the size of the dimensioning text in Intaglio either.
Select Dimensions from the Layout menu, and then select the “Show Fonts”
button from within the drop down window. Now change the font size, and it
will stick for that document, but only as long as it is open. Closing the
document reverts the settings back to default. My personal belief is that
the preferences should follow the document so you would not have to remember
what they were each and every time you open it. I don’t think you should
have to globally change every future document just to keep the settings for
one.
As far as I know the size of dimension text is correctly saved with the
document. You can also apply your settings for use in new documents. I don’t
understand your comments about changes sticking and preferences.
" FWIW, the early development of Intaglio was done exclusively on a 15” screen. I’m sensitive to the problem of using screen real estate effectively, but it’s an area filled with compromises. You can only control so many things with a certain amount of screen.
There are a number of options to help you along with the inspector palettes. You can rearrange them to suit how you work and use the right mouse button to close one while opening another. IMO, drawers aren’t a useful solution for Intaglio because there are just too many things that need controls. I think as a UI feature they’ve peaked and are being slowly phased out of new and redesigned apps. For example, I can’t think of any current Apple apps that use them. "
Nick,
Taking applications in iWork as a model for the user interface, would be (in my opinion), a great improvement. For example, If you were to introduce an inspector window, in which the several tabs would replace today’s multiple palettes, that would be a greatly reduce the screen clutter.
Also, I would submit that the way in which exporting content to other file formats is done by the iWork apps, with a window showing icons for each format, is the best.
In fact, since iWork does not include a drawing application, I am surprised that no independent drawing app developer has designed a drawing app with the exact look and feel of iWork, as if it had been devloped by Apple. I hope this inspires some app developer to do it …
" For the record I didn’t say that Intaglio won’t ever incorporate more CAD features. The chances are good that new CAD features will be added over time.
This thread is a good example of how thin a line Intaglio is trying to walk. Some people want better dimensioning or other CAD related tools. Some want better text handling or predefined gradients or other graphics tools. Everybody wants better user interface that packs more information on the screen without sacrificing legibility or convenience.
Intaglio has evolved considerably in the last few years based on the feedback of its users. The plan is to continue on that path so this type of discussion is always helpful. "
Nick,
I am glad to read that you plan to incorporate more CAD functionality into Intaglio.
Indeed Intaglio evolved a lot, with each new release bringing many useful new features. I think that version 3.0 left most of us a little disappointed in this regard.
Perhaps this is not the right thread to provide suggestions for new features, but there are some basic features / functionality that are almost obvious.
Other are less obvious but could be a major point of attraction for new customers.
For example, I have searched, and not found, drawing/CAD applications for OS X, that would import/export GDS2 files, a format that is pervasive in electronic engineering. In fact there aren’t even simple “format translation” apps that are OS X native. (such as this one http://www.linkcad.com/site/formats)
This is an great market opportunity for an app developer for OS X.
By the way, I would not mind paying an upgrade fee, if that is what is needed to get more CAD functionality and improved user interface in some future release (4.0 ?). I suspect that many others agree with me on this point.
Taking applications in iWork as a model for the user interface,
would be (in my opinion), a great improvement. For example, If you
were to introduce an inspector window, in which the several tabs
would replace today’s multiple palettes, that would be a greatly
reduce the screen clutter.
Yes, but it would also reduce functionality and useability - I
sometimes need several palettes open at the same time - with a
single inspector window that would no longer be possible.
While I think the iWork palettes may be limiting for this kind of app, having several windows open with iWork is a matter of holding option before clicking one of the inspector tabs.
FWIW, the early versions of Intaglio used a single inspector palette model closer to what iWork uses. The problem was that there are now so many inspectors it became impractical to create a toolbar or other header control to specify them all.
Personally I also think using a text name for the inspectors is more usable than the iWork icons. With lots of little icons it’s easy to lose track of what they represent. This is the kind of thing that’s always open to debate and if it becomes an important issue for a lot of people could be changed (or at least supplemented).
I’ve noticed that the new OmniGraffle is taking a middle approach. It uses multiple palettes but groups several icons into each one. You can also select multiple icons in each window (although this mostly only seems useful to me if you don’t change it much). Clearly everybody is facing the same set of problems and trying different things to find the “best” solution.
As I’ve alluded to before, one way to use the current implementation more efficiently for screen space is to use the right mouse button (on the disclosure triangle) to open the inspectors. This will open the clicked inspector and close the others in the same window. If you combine this with the inspector regrouping option you can reduce the screen space you use.
I’ve noticed that the new OmniGraffle is taking a middle approach.
Another interesting take is their toolbar that snaps to the side of the window like a drawer.
I made a template (Paper Size Super B/A3, oriented horizontally) and docked all the palettes together into a single column. The template almost fills the screen and as the closed palettes are only 3” high, there’s lots of room to create design elements, even with several open palettes. It’s a significant improvement over the previous arrangement, where the work area was cluttered with open palettes.
“…use the right mouse button (on the disclosure triangle) to open the inspectors.”
This doesn’t work with a single-button mouse. These shortcuts do work, however:
To open or close all pallettes: Option-click on a disclosure triangle.
To open a palette and close all open palettes, Command-click on a disclosure triangle.
I’d like to see most of the features in the Object menu available via palettes.
Blends and Paths could be easier to access. In other programs (Photoshop, Chocoflop, Pixelmator, Lineform), blends (or ink modes) are in a drop-down menu that’s always visible.
Alternatively, put Blends in the menu bar, next to the colour palettes. The palettes would be easier to use if they ‘stuck’ (stayed open), or were detachable. Currently, when you choose a colour, the palette closes, so if you’ve chosen the wrong colour, you have to go back to the menu and choose another colour. If it’s still wrong, do it again…etc.
LightningDraw’s colour and ink palettes are in a menu bar at the top of each window. This is similar to Intaglio, but the palettes can be detached and dragged into the working area.
Alternative 2: if Blends and Paths were put into palettes and docked, they could be detached and dragged into the work area. I hope this makes sense; it’s easier to explain this with screengrabs.
Path Operations (Unite, Intersect, Exclude and Subtract) would be easier to access if they were in a palette. The features could be accessed by pressing radio buttons, similar to the options in the Group palette.
Alternatively, put Blends in the menu bar, next to the colour palettes.
I’m guessing you meant the toolbar rather than the menu bar.
It would be nice to allow the toolbar items to “undock” as various apps have done in the past (probably going back to MacPaint). That’s mostly just a question of priorities. So far it hasn’t been a huge priority because it tends to go in the opposite direction of a main discussion on this thread. Namely, undocked palettes take up more screen real estate than menus.
I meant the horizontal row of icons at the top of a window.
“…undocked palettes take up more screen real estate than menus.”
That’s accepted, but an unopened docked palette is tiny—it’s just a title.
Menus are harder to use than palettes. If you know exactly what you want to achieve and know what effect a particular blend will have when it’s applied to an object, menus are good enough. You just go straight to the menu item and—bingo—the job’s done. I’m not that clever; it takes me longer.
Also, any item in Intaglio’s Window menu can be added to the list of docked palettes. That’s very good, but if a user doesn’t need a particular feature, he doesn’t have to add it to the list. For example, I don’t display Document Properties and Text Ruler, but I know the features are available if required.
If you choose the wrong blend or path operation, you have to keep going back to the Object menu, then the sub-menu, etc, until you get it right. If the options were more easily accessible, trying out different combinations of blends and colours would be much easier.
With palettes, when you’re done, you just click the close button and the desktop is free again.
I think you can very quickly get to a “Microsoft Office” point where EVERY tool is directly clickable and editable. I don’t think anyone wants to intentionally design their app like Office though (unless it’s the Office clones).
I’m not sure if this applies, but I believe, in the System Preferences, there exists the ability to assign a keystroke to any menu command at the app level (under Keyboard & Mouse). I just tried this with “Reverse” and it worked as expected.