Who is a Designer?

Hi guys,

nearby every second list here, I can read something like:

“I don’t want to spend my time with code - I am a designer”

Now let me quick explain:

I’m NOT a designer. I wanted to study graphic-design after school and army, but I was incredible lazy, talented but lazy. The only chance for studying had been either private-schools or day-and-nightshift power drawing for my portfolio.

For the first I haven’t had the money - for the second - ahhmm - no time :slight_smile:

So I started an apprenticeship (is this the correct word?) in a huge gravure-printery (450 colleagues) doing the printing-cylinder (gravure). So all I can say is that I’m coming from the background of the graphic industry. Nothing that qualifies me as a Designer.

My secondary plan was studying later - but wife, baby over and out :slight_smile:

I started then my one-nose-show during that time. I long thought to call me a designer but then preferred the term graphic design for web and print which is not as personalized.

So my simple question is:

When I visit the designer’s examples and pages shared here, I wonder.

And I often wonder!

So

What is it making you a designer and why should you do know nothing about code?

Cheers

Thomas


freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

Hi Thomas,

To answer your question:

I am a designer……

One who learned and practiced handcraft first and then adapted to the digital age. I have mastered many pieces of software in the process. I teach design and I teach software application. But first and foremost I remain a graphics designer, a true fine artist and photographer, a writer of prose and in general an intuitive Renaissance type with spiritual underpinnings.

I have viewed the helpful dialog here for some time feeling lost and ignorant much of the time hoping to pick up a modicum of information that will enhance my ability to build a website using Freeway Pro.

I have thought long and hard about the issue of whether I should invest the time and energy learning HTML, Java Script and CSS….Code as you call it.

The conclusion I have come to is that my strength and my heart is in my creativity and the expression of my love through this gift and talent. That is the road I must follow.

There are people who are mathematicians, masseurs, IT specialists, chefs, fisherman, musicians, mechanics and a host of other categories we call “jobs.” Each has a particular gift and a calling that fills the needs of their heart and soul.

To embark on a journey that would distract me at this stage of my life and immerse me in left brain thinking would be a betrayal of my true nature. It would be a waste of precious time and energy.

Fortunately there are kind people as you who aid those of us who are less inclined in the world of code.

My gift is what it is. I have no desire to get lost in a world of typing, code and structure that would carry me away from the Beauty I can and do offer this world.

Warm regards and thanks,

Paul

On Aug 29, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Thomas Kimmich wrote:

Hi guys,

nearby every second list here, I can read something like:

“I don’t want to spend my time with code - I am a designer”

Now let me quick explain:

I’m NOT a designer. I wanted to study graphic-design after school and army, but I was incredible lazy, talented but lazy. The only chance for studying had been either private-schools or day-and-nightshift power drawing for my portfolio.

For the first I haven’t had the money - for the second - ahhmm - no time :slight_smile:

So I started an apprenticeship (is this the correct word?) in a huge gravure-printery (450 colleagues) doing the printing-cylinder (gravure). So all I can say is that I’m coming from the background of the graphic industry. Nothing that qualifies me as a Designer.

My secondary plan was studying later - but wife, baby over and out :slight_smile:

I started then my one-nose-show during that time. I long thought to call me a designer but then preferred the term graphic design for web and print which is not as personalized.

So my simple question is:

When I visit the designer’s examples and pages shared here, I wonder.

And I often wonder!

So

What is it making you a designer and why should you do know nothing about code?

Cheers

Thomas


freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options


freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

Hi Thomas,

thnx for your private story of how getting into this business. i was at the age of 15 a pupil of a bookprinter, learning screenprint, offset etc. But happily (also after being early married at 19, wife, baby etc) found a job at an advertisingagency and became designer/illustrator.

What I already told to Dieter, I’m willing to learn some coding, pasting it, enhancing, chancing, but I can’t write it well. I’m very jealous on those guys who can!

So I want to spent some time on coding, but DON’T want to spoil my time with it. The only thing what my clients wants to pay for is what they see ON te screen, not whats all done behind.
I know its an advantage to know the basics. And I know the uh… basic basics. Its just not my cup of tea.
I want to make things good looking, pleasant for the eye and code is to abstract for me. If I read a line of code, problably you get a vision. I get a headache… :wink:

So I’m very very very glad with actions, tutorials, scripts, modules etc. And thanx for those smart guys like you who give me the chance to use your stuff.

Last but not least, I’m gladly willing to pay for it because it saves me hours of nasty work.

A


freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

There are many designers on this forum who are experts in coding. Many think you should not be a website designer unless you know some code. I am certainly not either of those.

I specialise in print media - using Quark, Photoshop and Illustrator. I won’t dream of having to use code to be able to get what I want out of these packages.

I do get the argument that says you should learn code to get the most out of Freeway. But it is sold on the premise that you can produce great websites without coding. And that’s why I use it, and love doing so.

I do not have the time or the inclination to learn code, so I will leave that to the experts.


freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

A lot depends on the type of work you pursue and the level of service you want to provide. Some clients have very high expectations of the people they hire, be it creative or technical skills or a thorough knowledge of the nuances of the medium as a whole. Other clients just want simple, cheap and fast.

Part of it is about being able to compete at a certain level (whatever that is for you). Without a broader understanding and skill-set many of us would feel out of our depth.

Todd
http://xiiro.com


freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

Paint it any color you want - Web Design is Engineering.

But so was Print Design - at least in the circles I ran. You learned very
quickly that no matter how great your design was, if it was not producible
then your career would be short.

Print designers are masters of visual language - which is the least
important aspect of web design. If we are complaining today that Freeway is
becoming too hard for print designers to produce static designs with no
semantic or little meta value, then I am celebrating. Freeway should help
us design for the Web, not just make stuff to stick there.

What makes us designers is a good question to ask - could I design awesome
buildings without any knowledge of mechanical engineering or the ability to
use a slide rule? Hmmm. Am I a web designer because at the end of whatever
process I follow, out pops what is arguably a web page? Hmmm.

You don’t have to be a web “engineer” to make cool-looking websites, but it
helps. Especially when you consider all the non-visual functions web pages
are required to perform. Freeway may seem hard, but that changes quickly
once you dive in and try to understand what is going on. Then it becomes
much less mystery.

There are many alternatives to Freeway Pro, but none to growing your skill
and understanding. Both of which you can apply regardless which app you use.


Ernie Simpson
aka The Big Erns


freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

Thanks guys so far.

So let’s fire a few aspects more.

History:

People think Gutenberg found “print-technology”. This is (partially) true, however and more importantly he found a way to print with movable type. He was clever enough to even create a marketing strategy which could be outlined as:

  1. Strategy - (mass-production)
  2. Content - (handwritten testament)
  3. Pre-process - Setting the words by movable types (the tool)
  4. Production - (Printing)

The interesting point here?

This basic strategy (1439) outlasted 600 years - and is still present. So this guy could be seen as the first web-designer at all.

Present:

Pretty much as a printed magazines a web-project requires an outline as well:

  1. Strategy
  2. Research
  3. Post Production (Images, colors, Fonts, Scripts)
  4. FrontEnd Developing (the Tool - Freeway?)
  5. Publishing (CMD-P)

No matter how “big” a web-project is (or will grow), it’s highly recommended to follow them. If I seek for the place of the designer, I guess somewhere on point 3. Naturally all people should work together - preferably if it is one singular person challenging all 5 steps.

Conclusion:

Web-Design is a sorted list of different disciplines

  • while working with Freeway is FrontEnd developing and just part of this process
  • I got my start in this business in 1984, when I graduated from art school and opened a photo studio. In school, I studied all sorts of things – cabinetmaking, jewelry, glass-blowing, graphic design, typesetting (oh, and my major, studio advertising photography).

    In 1990, I moved to Philadelphia, where my wife was in graduate school, and where I knew exactly two people besides her. Instead of ramping up my studio photography business again in a strange town, I got a job in the advertising department of a regional department store. I photographed beds and toasters and towels and cookware. And at lunch time, I would sneak in to the design studio and teach myself how to use the Mac, because I was just fascinated with it.

    I knew the towels were a dead end, so I made up a bunch of spec ads and showed them around until I landed a job at an ad agency as an art director. And then moved up the chain through a number of different agencies until the Web happened in 1997.

    When I met Freeway and started down the path to my current position.

    I have always, throughout everything I have done, considered myself an artist first.

    And a craftsman.

    I consider the latter to be even more important than the former. A craftsman is sensitive to the needs and wants of their chosen materials. This is why I have bothered to learn as much code as I have. It’s the raw material we work with, and without it, I could only make static things that were pretty, not applications that do things and add tangible value to the world.

    When I worked in print, I went to press checks, and because I had taken a class in high school, and knew how to run an offset press, I could talk intelligently to the operators and learn from them where I had gone wrong, and what they had to do to make my unprintable mess work correctly. I have always dived deep into anything I do, I need to know at a very visceral level exactly why things work the way they do.

    The Web is no different. My work has always pushed the limits of what I know how to do, and I have always relied on the help and understanding of those who knew more about what I was trying to do to complete it. I read, ask questions, and dig into how things work under the surface. I have never felt that design as decoration, or design as glossy opaque surface covering incomprehensible complexity was doing anyone any favors. My favorite work celebrates the complexity, exposes it in a way that is not threatening, and makes it understandable.

    One thing I’m reminded of in this discussion is the wish some people have that scientists would just talk in plain language that anyone can understand. A few scientists (Carl Sagan, maybe) have approached this pinnacle in their work, but most struggle to explain things in the specialist language that they know how to use well. And the secret here is that the language they use – arcane and specific though it may be – is actually the only way to express some of the ideas that they work with. When they say three words that mean one precise thing, and it would take 27 words to approximate (badly) the same thing in “layman’s terms”, then you see that the effort that they took to learn that language and precision is rewarded with harder problems to solve, and higher mountains to climb.

    Web design is a continuum and a journey, and no matter where you are today, there will be something new to learn tomorrow – some new thing that a client will ask for and hope you can give them. Keep reaching, keep stretching, and keep reading and listening and asking questions. There is truly no end to what you can do in this medium, and your only limit is your own imagination.

    Walter

    On Aug 29, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Thomas Kimmich wrote:

    Thanks guys so far.

    So let’s fire a few aspects more.

    History:

    People think Gutenberg found “print-technology”. This is (partially) true, however and more importantly he found a way to print with movable type. He was clever enough to even create a marketing strategy which could be outlined as:

    1. Strategy - (mass-production)
    2. Content - (handwritten testament)
    3. Pre-process - Setting the words by movable types (the tool)
    4. Production - (Printing)

    The interesting point here?

    This basic strategy (1439) outlasted 600 years - and is still present. So this guy could be seen as the first web-designer at all.

    Present:

    Pretty much as a printed magazines a web-project requires an outline as well:

    1. Strategy
    2. Research
    3. Post Production (Images, colors, Fonts, Scripts)
    4. FrontEnd Developing (the Tool - Freeway?)
    5. Publishing (CMD-P)

    No matter how “big” a web-project is (or will grow), it’s highly recommended to follow them. If I seek for the place of the designer, I guess somewhere on point 3. Naturally all people should work together - preferably if it is one singular person challenging all 5 steps.

    Conclusion:

    Web-Design is a sorted list of different disciplines

  • while working with Freeway is FrontEnd developing and just part of this process

  • freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    This basic strategy (1439) outlasted 600 years - and is still present.
    So this guy could be seen as the first web-designer at all.

    Some interesting points and ideas, but I’m afraid I have to shoot this
    down. Gutenberg was no more a web designer than the inventor of the
    wheel was a car designer. :wink:

    k


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    Great stories of you all, and I’ll appreciate the fantastic drives you show in your work and also helping others with your knowledge. I also like programs as “How it’s made and done” and I’m always eager to learn and discover all those different surprising roads who lead to Rome.

    But in practice: as an professional Art Director and Web Designer I have to deal with deadlines, I work on tight budgets and schedules. I have to earn Euro’s for a living and my clients won’t pay my studies and the time I have to figure out again ’Why that ’****’ script isn’t working as it should’. My job is making nice and good working sites that pleases my clients and their visitors.

    So my goal is efficiency and finding the right tools and components to get things done. In a fast, non frustrating way. Freeway is my #1 tool. Choosen because I can build sites ‘without writing a line of code’. As my main task is design I would like to keep it that way and keep coding preferably to the minimum. Because thats not my strength and have to make choices in life to survive.

    So I’m very glad with you guys who like coding :wink:


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    Some interesting points and ideas, but I’m afraid I have to shoot this
    down. Gutenberg was no more a web designer than the inventor of the
    wheel was a car designer. :wink:

    Wheel / Car = Mobility

    Gutenberg / Web = Communication

    So what’s wrong?

    All I wanted to say is that Gutenberg was a better designer, than some of the present page-examples here.

    Cheers

    Thomas


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    I followed a similar path to Walter starting a design in 1985 and then a printing business later. I’d gone to Design College being being inspired by the great 70/85’s design and advertising work.

    The Designer

    Unlike today only one person would be considered the designer. That person would be doing the creative work in control of the pencils, Pantone Markers and Layout Paper that created the design work ‘before’ the production took place. These Creative layouts / scamps would be approved by the clients before production work began.

    The Art worker

    Those designs would be moved down to a Technical Drawing Board using Schoellershammer Art Board, board Rotring Pens, Spray Mount, Letraset, Scalpels and a galley of Phototypesetting (which you’d have to specify). The artwork/logos would be ‘hand drawn’ and assembled with a parallel motion into camera ready artwork.

    Reproduction

    The next down the chain would be the person in charge of the Repro Camera…

    Printing

    If you were working in single/four colour print plates could be made on the camera and put on something like this… http://youtu.be/qWfrP0tCtHw

    Being a smaller business I’ve done all the stages above and a lot of it!. Production process required a lot of skill and more akin to a ‘craft’. Apart from the initial design/creative concept work which you’ve either got or not. There were fewer designers back then because few had the skills or training to follow through the job. Much like an Architect requiring to know building process.

    Turning back to today the only requirement to call yourself a designer is a £30 monthly subscription to Adobe (or a pirate version of Photoshop). Looks good in RGB pixels boom job done. No awareness of Typography, colour theory, Advertising or Marketing experience. Similarly there’s been a huge rise in the ‘Social Media Expert’ qualification. Considering Twitter and Facebook is free no wonder.

    There’s do doubt the barrier to entry now to be a ‘designer’ is very low. Is this a good or bad thing? Without training and skill ‘in their craft’ are they actually a designer? With no creative Spark is that a designer? Picking only fonts and colours and shapes and following design trends. I would say no. That’s more akin to the ‘Art worker’ above.

    It’s certainly a good thing for Software companies to have armies of designers to sell to. And intelligent design software now and in the future will be blurring what designers do opening things up for everyone to call themselves designers or calling the software the designer?

    David Owen

    Creative Design | Print Production | Web Design & Strategy |
    Domains & Web Hosting

    On 30 Aug 2014, at 06:10, Walter Lee Davis email@hidden wrote:

    I got my start in this business in 1984, wh


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    On 30 Aug 2014, at 20:40, Thomas Kimmich wrote:

    Wheel / Car = Mobility

    Gutenberg / Web = Communication

    So what’s wrong?

    Heh. I wouldn’t let my students get away with that. What Gutenberg did
    has led, in a long, stretched-out sense, to today’s web, among many
    other things, but that doesn’t make him in any way a web designer.
    That’s what I was pointing out.

    All I wanted to say is that Gutenberg was a better designer, than some
    of the present page-examples here.

    I can definitely agree with that! :smiley:

    k


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    Why do I have a feeling Thomas is trying to say something to everyone here; He says he sees bad examples of webpages being shared here. Then he implicates these people call themselves designers. Every reaction ignores his remark and so he repeats the remark, stating that Gutenberg was an even better designer than some of the present page examples here.

    I must admit that it is not a very kind way of putting things and I am very surprised that no one picked up the ‘sting’ here.

    Design has a lot to do with taste. I see a lot of websites from well-known companies (webdesign agencies) which are really horrible to my eyes. Next there are a lot of websites with spelling mistakes or not correctly placed text in items.

    If someone composes a website he or she is busy with ‘design’. If all items and text are well thought through and placed in such a way that it is easy understood what the websites goal is; it then could be considered as a well designed website. Others could disagree on that, but hey who is right? there is no right or wrong here! Well I think that misspelled words or dated information etc. is worse. To me, that are really wrong websites. This is an endless discussion because…there is no right or wrong. Taste is the base of judging. What I hate to see is loved by another and so on.

    So please let us all be designers and please Thomas, why do you make such a fuss about it? Don’t get me wrong, but I have a feeling you are feeling a little under-appreciated. Your remark is just not so nice to all these people who are have a lot of fun ‘designing’ their things.

    And in the end; it all comes to earning the euros, and others have said it allready; if the client wants it…


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    if the client wants it…

    For myself, just because the client wants something doesn’t mean I give it to them. Part of my job is saying no - and I say it a lot - when it’s in their best interest, and explaining the reasoning if/when they don’t understand. Clients need boundaries too, and if I don’t set them then they sure as hell won’t.

    Todd


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    @todd: of course, your addition is correct.


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    Your remark is just not so nice to all these people who are have a lot of fun ‘designing’ their things.

    Having fun is one thing - but to then charge clients is another.

    I think it is important to differentiate between the FW user that is creating their own product and those that expect to be paid for it.

    I would hope that the latter would deserve the title ‘Designer’.

    D


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    My lists are usually target-oriented and have nothing to do with my personal interests or sensitivities. They are provoking and require sometimes “a story behind”.

    If users have the feel, the number on their paycheck is highly responsive with some critical breakpoints on the min-height, I think it’s time to ask some questions.

    And I simply started by things we have (perhaps) in common:

    Whether being designers or at least thinking about being a designer.

    I don’t make any fuss, I just name things and address them.
    But as long the problem is unnamable, a shared solution is useless! But it’s written here - umpteen times - literally - and it would just take me 10 minutes to collect and share them - and believe me, this wouldn’t be nice at all.

    My primary goal is to make a tool which I preferably use better. Unfortunately the V7 makes people loose more and more the correlation between an easier structured HTML and a much easier use of this tool - in favor of more time for design.

    And I have tons of further questions!

    Cheers

    Thomas


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    I’m sorry but now you are coming up with a problem which is unnameable? It makes me more than curious what it is you see as a problem…

    Your described tool? I think we have a shared goal.

    But your real question is not clear enough. To me though…


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

    What is it making you a designer and why should you do know nothing about code?

    What makes you a designer is your ability of giving ideas and emotion shape so others get a certain feeling when they get in touch with the design.

    You can develop your talent by improving your skills. Taking tutorials at a design academy is one of the possibilities and often its a short route. Another option is gathering information, practice, think, ask critique, look around, analyse, grow. In both cases it gets to 10% talent, 90% hard work.

    And a designer who knows nothing about code has to work in a team, as the art-director, and the end result depends on the skills of the whole team. The art-directer also has to have the communication-skill else the team can fool him or doesn’t know what to do.

    When you are your own team, its almost inevitable knowing code. This also counts for all the other skills, they are your toolbox, your paintbrushes, canvas, paint…

    In that case even freeway is just a tool, helping with building your idea into code so other people can read it through their devices. And despite the qualities of freeway it has its limitations and the possibilities of the internet grow faster than freeway can run. When you know what freeway does and how the code can be tweaked you are the master instead of another tool.

    And sometimes a designer creates bubbles, their talk is better than the design. And when they talk about the design giving you the original feeling of the intended idea its almost growing to Art.

    Back to designing websites. Most website are build in consultation with the client. You can call it applied arts (design). Sometimes the influence of the client is the DNA in the design. Anyway, its not always possible to judge the designer by the design.


    freewaytalk mailing list
    email@hidden
    Update your subscriptions at:
    http://freewaytalk.net/person/options