Has anyone ever fired a client?
Why
And how?
Thank you
Julie
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Has anyone ever fired a client?
Do you want to fire one?
If so it really depends on the circumstances that you have got yourself into as to how you go about it.
D
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I have a client that has difficulty understanding, communicating and giving me content.
I ask for xyz… General description for each page… I give him an example… He asks for a discription…
I ask for changes so
We can launch tomorrow… He sends some… I confirm where he wants them since he is not specific… He says we need to meet…
He says I have not done any site development w him there have been 3 21/2 Hour sessions. Plus several phone calls and emails (300)
It’s the all over stupidity and idiotic info and behavior. It takes a lot of energy and time away from others. I have never Dealt with a client like this before and it blows my mind
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 9, 2012, at 19:19, DeltaDave email@hidden wrote:
Has anyone ever fired a client?
Do you want to fire one?
If so it really depends on the circumstances that you have got yourself into as to how you go about it.
D
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If you are prepared to walk away - whether he owes you money or not - then do it.
Sometimes you get so far and realise things are never going to get any better and nobody is really going to be happy. At that point tell him so.
Is there a contract that you both have signed up to?
If there is no contract then you have no obligation to complete - except for the damage to your reputation.
But whatever you do - you need to explain your reasons for doing it. It is not enough to tell him you cannot work for him any more. Write him a letter/email, outline your issues.
Put it down to experience and move on.
D
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With him for some reason I did not do a contract.
I am prepared though hate to loose the money.
Reputation… He is really a small person and if someone is a friend or client of his, I don’t think I would want to deal w them either.
I walked into a meeting w him walked out w one of the worst migraines in 10 years.
Thank you for your support. I have never had a client like this., if you saw my post a few weeks about a clients and my conversation - that is him.
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 19:55, DeltaDave email@hidden wrote:
If you are prepared to walk away - whether he owes you money or not - then do it.
Sometimes you get so far and realise things are never going to get any better and nobody is really going to be happy. At that point tell him so.
Is there a contract that you both have signed up to?
If there is no contract then you have no obligation to complete - except for the damage to your reputation.
But whatever you do - you need to explain your reasons for doing it. It is not enough to tell him you cannot work for him any more. Write him a letter/email, outline your issues.
Put it down to experience and move on.
D
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There are two bad things that can come out of a client breakup - litigation
and reputation.
Whether written or verbal or implied, your relationship with your client is
governed by contract. You will want to make sure that you have well
documented that relationship and the problems that pushed you to leave it,
in case you are sued by the client for breaching said contract. So all your
emails, notes, calendars - any written or transmitted materials related -
should be archived and preserved in case you must go to court.
Clients don’t always seek legal means to vent their disappointment at
failed relationships - but they may say bad things about you to sully your
reputation in the local community. Reputations really matter in freelance
work. In this case, it is doubly important to know what your local laws are
for things like libel and slander, to have a good relationship with
experienced legal representation, and of course to document those client
relationships.
I will suggest you speak to your client and tell them that you are thinking
about firing them. Sometimes it is that dose of reality which refocuses
people.
I will also pass on an idea that I heard in a commercial the other day. An
investment firm went out of their way to say that they would require time
to get to know you as a client before designing an investment package for
you. I know that 99.999% of clients want a million options by yesterday,
but I really like the idea of taking time to get to know a client, and let
them get to know me. Relationships are important.
Best of luck with your situation!
Ernie Simpson
On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Julie Maxwell Allen email@hiddenwrote:
I have a client that has difficulty understanding, communicating and
giving me content.
I ask for xyz… General description for each page… I give him an
example… He asks for a discription…I ask for changes so
We can launch tomorrow… He sends some… I confirm where he wants them
since he is not specific… He says we need to meet…
He says I have not done any site development w him there have been 3 21/2
Hour sessions. Plus several phone calls and emails (300)It’s the all over stupidity and idiotic info and behavior. It takes a lot
of energy and time away from others. I have never Dealt with a client like
this before and it blows my mindSent from my iPhone
On Sep 9, 2012, at 19:19, DeltaDave email@hidden wrote:
Has anyone ever fired a client?
Do you want to fire one?
If so it really depends on the circumstances that you have got yourself
into as to how you go about it.D
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On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 7:55 PM, DeltaDave email@hidden wrote:
If there is no contract then you have no obligation to complete…
Dave, I will disagree on this – of course laws are different everywhere and
the States may not serve as the best example, but there are implied
contracts as well as verbal contracts. Generally it’s understood that as
soon as money crosses palms, there is a contract.
Again, the States may not be the best legal precedent, but often lawsuits
can and are brought without merit. In situations where cost of defending
yourself is equal or greater than settling, well they can be downright
maddening.
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Julie, this is why it is a good practice to secure a non-refundable deposit
up front. If the client changes his mind or decides to delay the project,
then your deposit is converted into a cancellation fee which then covers
the lost time in your work schedule. Of course, simple contracts - or
agreements - should be standard fare for you as well.
When you break up with a client though, returning deposits becomes a thorny
issue. On the one hand it may generate goodwill and immunity from lawsuits
or gossip. Or not. The other side is loss of compensation for time spent on
a failed project. Either way, some heavy soul-searching for you.
Again, best of luck!
Ernie Simpson
On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Julie Maxwell email@hidden wrote:
With him for some reason I did not do a contract.
I am prepared though hate to loose the money.
Reputation… He is really a small person and if someone is a friend or
client of his, I don’t think I would want to deal w them either.I walked into a meeting w him walked out w one of the worst migraines in
10 years.Thank you for your support. I have never had a client like this., if you
saw my post a few weeks about a clients and my conversation - that is him.Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 19:55, DeltaDave email@hidden wrote:
If you are prepared to walk away - whether he owes you money or not -
then do it.Sometimes you get so far and realise things are never going to get any
better and nobody is really going to be happy. At that point tell him so.Is there a contract that you both have signed up to?
If there is no contract then you have no obligation to complete - except
for the damage to your reputation.But whatever you do - you need to explain your reasons for doing it. It
is not enough to tell him you cannot work for him any more. Write him a
letter/email, outline your issues.Put it down to experience and move on.
D
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Generally it’s understood that as soon as money crosses palms, there is a contract.
Has money been paid? If yes and goods not delivered then I agree.
I appreciate that the Litigious States of America are not the same as the rest of the world - but we are heading your way!
My point really is that you shouldn’t keep battering your head against a brick wall - all you will get is a headache.
Walk away as gracefully as you can.
D
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Thank you for all your thoughts!
I have spent more energy and more energy sucked from me w this client… But will meet with him in am to try to work it out. And this is one of those 7-9 info pages for x amount sales I ran I need to be more careful on who I offer specials too lol
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 9, 2012, at 20:37, Ernie Simpson email@hidden wrote:
Julie, this is why it is a good practice to secure a non-refundable deposit
up front. If the client changes his mind or decides to delay the project,
then your deposit is converted into a cancellation fee which then covers
the lost time in your work schedule. Of course, simple contracts - or
agreements - should be standard fare for you as well.When you break up with a client though, returning deposits becomes a thorny
issue. On the one hand it may generate goodwill and immunity from lawsuits
or gossip. Or not. The other side is loss of compensation for time spent on
a failed project. Either way, some heavy soul-searching for you.Again, best of luck!
Ernie Simpson
On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Julie Maxwell email@hidden wrote:
With him for some reason I did not do a contract.
I am prepared though hate to loose the money.
Reputation… He is really a small person and if someone is a friend or
client of his, I don’t think I would want to deal w them either.I walked into a meeting w him walked out w one of the worst migraines in
10 years.Thank you for your support. I have never had a client like this., if you
saw my post a few weeks about a clients and my conversation - that is him.Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 19:55, DeltaDave email@hidden wrote:
If you are prepared to walk away - whether he owes you money or not -
then do it.Sometimes you get so far and realise things are never going to get any
better and nobody is really going to be happy. At that point tell him so.Is there a contract that you both have signed up to?
If there is no contract then you have no obligation to complete - except
for the damage to your reputation.But whatever you do - you need to explain your reasons for doing it. It
is not enough to tell him you cannot work for him any more. Write him a
letter/email, outline your issues.Put it down to experience and move on.
D
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On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 8:40 PM, DeltaDave email@hidden wrote:
… as gracefully as you can.
Agreed
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He gave me 1/2 down as a retainer. But all the work has been done
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 9, 2012, at 20:40, DeltaDave email@hidden wrote:
Generally it’s understood that as soon as money crosses palms, there is a contract.
Has money been paid? If yes and goods not delivered then I agree.
I appreciate that the Litigious States of America are not the same as the rest of the world - but we are heading your way!
My point really is that you shouldn’t keep battering your head against a brick wall - all you will get is a headache.
Walk away as gracefully as you can.
D
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I am going to try. Maybe a breakthrough in our am meeting 
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 9, 2012, at 20:44, Ernie Simpson email@hidden wrote:
On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 8:40 PM, DeltaDave email@hidden wrote:
… as gracefully as you can.
Agreed
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A contract is there to protect you and your client - so use one. I have started to structure my contracts that I get paid an advance - and the balance after 30 days and 60 days after the project kick-off date. If the client is a feet dragger and is not supplying content or participating in meetings a still get paid whether the site is live or not.
I never design a site until the content has been worked out, the content drives the design. Start a relationship with a copywriter than can help you with developing the content. It’s another way to make some extra money and you are in control of the content.
Relevant article here on Design Blender - How to share bad news with a client and save the relationship
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You got it here. And at least 30% of the project total. Split a project 30% on design, 30% on build, balance on completion (agree before you begin ideally a contract or at least show your terms of sale). Get each stage approved before move to the next work stage you can’t go far wrong. Out of experience make it clear in meetings when the project alters and scope far exceeds the budget.
–
David
On 10 Sep 2012, at 01:37, Ernie Simpson wrote:
non-refundable deposit up front
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This is always the hardest part ~ gathering content. Often a small client sees web design and just that, the "visual’ design layer. And even assume the designer will fill the site with content even when they don’t know what that content should actually be themselves.
“I need a website design” is often confused between “I need a complete and ever growing, online marketing campaign for my business” you know for that tiny sum we originally agreed.
–
David
On 10 Sep 2012, at 05:48, Helveticus wrote:
I never design a site until the content has been worked out, the content drives the design.
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Exactly.
I state to all clients (in the contract) that you supply pictures and words… even if it is an outline of what they want to say.
Most clients are fine with this and understand simple instructions and needs. This one does not get it or understand where I can not do anything else with out it. Most of my clients will supply content or give me an outline. I have been blessed up until now to have clients that are pro active.
Marcel, Most times then not I do agree but I normally have an outline pre design so I have a guide and I am ok with that if they can not supply words at that moment.
In addition, what is the kicker - i sent him an email yesterday outlining my plan to launch this am after our meeting. and I expect the final payment this am also.
his responce: You have not spent any time with me on the development site.
… wait the site is done -needs some word tweeks but yet… the site is done… and I have had several 2 hr + meetings with him about the site…
I really am unsure how to respond or go forth with this.
All of your words everyone has helped me! thank you!! I love the input that you all do and allow a flow of conversation like this. It helps me feel more sane and that I am not alone.
J
On Sep 10, 2012, at 7:02 AM, David Owen email@hidden wrote:
This is always the hardest part ~ gathering content. Often a small client sees web design and just that, the "visual’ design layer. And even assume the designer will fill the site with content even when they don’t know what that content should actually be themselves.
“I need a website design” is often confused between “I need a complete and ever growing, online marketing campaign for my business” you know for that tiny sum we originally agreed.
–
David
On 10 Sep 2012, at 05:48, Helveticus wrote:
I never design a site until the content has been worked out, the content drives the design.
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And in the US, it is incredibly important to refer to this as a Retainer, never a Deposit. Retainers don’t have to be returned, even if you provide no tangible output for them at all. (Remember, you’ve spent time trying to do the work, and even if you don’t succeed in producing anything, that time is gone.) The Law is full of tiny details like this. I refer you to Mike Monteiro’s seminal Creative Morning speech on the topic: http://vimeo.com/22053820 and his book “Design is a Job”, published by A Book Apart.
Walter
On Sep 9, 2012, at 8:37 PM, Ernie Simpson wrote:
Julie, this is why it is a good practice to secure a non-refundable deposit
up front.
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Mike’s book is really helpful. I have even referred non designers friends to read it.
Marcel
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Does anyone have a model contract they are willing to share ? Or can lead me to guidance on writing one ? As a lone freelance designer this is one area (of many !) I confess to never finding the time to get around to doing. And having just listened to Mike Monteiro’s Creative Morning speech (thank you Walter ) I can see I should get that sorted as fast as possible.
Richard
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