Freeway Alternative – Pinegrow Web Designer

David, thank you for your two helpful replies. Regarding CMS, is that how you would categorize an off-site hosted FileMaker Pro database?

We host 2 databases with MacUSA because, quite frankly, they are the cheapest FileMaker host out there, and they’ve done a great job for us for the last few years:

http://www.macusa.net/FMP12.html

We just link to a login page hosted on their server for our dealers to login and access wiring data. To make changes, we just upload the updated FM database. It uses FM IWP, somewhat dated but much cheaper down the line than price categories the newest FM versions force you into.

I’m just trying to get my head around what defines a CMS. For if our FM database is defined as CMS, then how is our base website defined seeing we host it on a server in CA that doesn’t belong to us, and we are based in Japan?

Thanks,

James Wages


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Wow, you could get quite metaphysical trying to define a CMS, I guess. What you have going (your wiring data) is more along the lines of a “web app”, rather than a straightforward CMS. You allow user input to direct the output, following an algorithm defined in your database and its view layer. In a sense, that’s what a CMS is, but quite a bit more specialized for showing the content of a Web site, rather than wiring diagrams. If I recall correctly, you allow people to search and refine their choice by model, year, and make, and then you show the wiring diagrams that apply to that particular vehicle. That’s something you would struggle to build out of a traditional CMS, since those are more along the lines of “show me a navigation panel for this section”, then “choose a page from the list” and “show me the page I asked for”. It’s less complex by far.

Walter

On Aug 2, 2016, at 8:04 PM, JDW email@hidden wrote:

David, thank you for your two helpful replies. Regarding CMS, is that how you would categorize an off-site hosted FileMaker Pro database?

We host 2 databases with MacUSA because, quite frankly, they are the cheapest FileMaker host out there, and they’ve done a great job for us for the last few years:

MacUSA.net FileMaker 12 Hosting

We just link to a login page hosted on their server for our dealers to login and access wiring data. To make changes, we just upload the updated FM database. It uses FM IWP, somewhat dated but much cheaper down the line than price categories the newest FM versions force you into.

I’m just trying to get my head around what defines a CMS. For if our FM database is defined as CMS, then how is our base website defined seeing we host it on a server in CA that doesn’t belong to us, and we are based in Japan?

Thanks,

James Wages


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Thank you, Walter!

–J. Wages


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Today I was finally able to spend some time with Pinegrow Pro. A client gave me a url for a site that they wanted to update/revise with their unique marketing techniques and yet keep the same look and feel as the client’s original. PG was the perfect tool for this. Opening an html file from right off the web and removing/replacing DIV’s with different content including responsive videos and such was just really cool. It took me quite awhile because of the learning curve, but I can see where this will be an invaluable tool.

I think maybe someone else mentioned that you could visually design in something else and then open in PG and go to town under the hood adding extra bells and whistles that may not be included in a codeless program.

This was worth the investment.


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FLUX is discounting its latest version 6 for a few dollars. WYSIWYG and
coding…

2016-08-04 4:54 GMT+02:00 Frank Bridges email@hidden:

Today I was finally able to spend some time with Pinegrow Pro. A client
gave me a url for a site that they wanted to update/revise with their
unique marketing techniques and yet keep the same look and feel as the
client’s original. PG was the perfect tool for this. Opening an html file
from right off the web and removing/replacing DIV’s with different content
including responsive videos and such was just really cool. It took me
quite awhile because of the learning curve, but I can see where this will
be an invaluable tool.

I think maybe someone else mentioned that you could visually design in
something else and then open in PG and go to town under the hood adding
extra bells and whistles that may not be included in a codeless program.

This was worth the investment.


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But how is FLUX fundamentally different from Dreamweaver? Dreamweaver for years has offered something similar (which never pulled me away from Freeway, by the way). Here’s a short look at Flux:

To me, Pinegrow would seem to fill a need (for me), if and only if Freeway stopped working and for some reason I couldn’t get it to work, and I still haven’t chosen another web design app (say Blocs) in which to redesign my sites, so I would need to pull existing HTML files into Pinegrow to perform modest edits. But I, being a visual designer, really wouldn’t want to stay in Pinegrow simply because it is focus more on the code. The best solution for me, if I want to create a fully responsive site, would be to choose something like Sparkle or Blocs to have a rather easy means of creating responsive designs (something I never was able to accomplish in Freeway, because I lack the time, dedication and metal skills that other Freeway users have; namely, Thomas K. and Ernie S.).

–James Wages


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@ James
For your demands I think Blocs is the tool.

2016-08-05 2:35 GMT+02:00 JDW email@hidden:

But how is FLUX fundamentally different from Dreamweaver? Dreamweaver for
years has offered something similar (which never pulled me away from
Freeway, by the way). Here’s a short look at Flux:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddXtxc-A1Bo

To me, Pinegrow would seem to fill a need (for me), if and only if Freeway
stopped working and for some reason I couldn’t get it to work, and I still
haven’t chosen another web design app (say Blocs) in which to redesign my
sites, so I would need to pull existing HTML files into Pinegrow to perform
modest edits. But I, being a visual designer, really wouldn’t want to stay
in Pinegrow simply because it is focus more on the code. The best solution
for me, if I want to create a fully responsive site, would be to choose
something like Sparkle or Blocs to have a rather easy means of creating
responsive designs (something I never was able to accomplish in Freeway,
because I lack the time, dedication and metal skills that other Freeway
users have; namely, Thomas K. and Ernie S.).

–James Wages


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@ James
For your demands I think Blocs is the tool. Or CC’s Visual Site Designer
aka Foundation Framer but this one will need some more time to learn.

2016-08-05 2:35 GMT+02:00 JDW email@hidden:

But how is FLUX fundamentally different from Dreamweaver? Dreamweaver for
years has offered something similar (which never pulled me away from
Freeway, by the way). Here’s a short look at Flux:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddXtxc-A1Bo

To me, Pinegrow would seem to fill a need (for me), if and only if Freeway
stopped working and for some reason I couldn’t get it to work, and I still
haven’t chosen another web design app (say Blocs) in which to redesign my
sites, so I would need to pull existing HTML files into Pinegrow to perform
modest edits. But I, being a visual designer, really wouldn’t want to stay
in Pinegrow simply because it is focus more on the code. The best solution
for me, if I want to create a fully responsive site, would be to choose
something like Sparkle or Blocs to have a rather easy means of creating
responsive designs (something I never was able to accomplish in Freeway,
because I lack the time, dedication and metal skills that other Freeway
users have; namely, Thomas K. and Ernie S.).

–James Wages


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On 5 Aug 2016, 2:16 am, Andries Kuipers wrote:

@ James
For your demands I think Blocs is the tool. Or CC’s Visual Site Designer
aka Foundation Framer but this one will need some more time to learn.

2016-08-05 2:35 GMT+02:00 JDW :

But how is FLUX fundamentally different from Dreamweaver? Dreamweaver for
years has offered something similar (which never pulled me away from
Freeway, by the way). Here’s a short look at Flux:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddXtxc-A1Bo

To me, Pinegrow would seem to fill a need (for me), if and only if Freeway
stopped working and for some reason I couldn’t get it to work, and I still
haven’t chosen another web design app (say Blocs) in which to redesign my
sites, so I would need to pull existing HTML files into Pinegrow to perform
modest edits. But I, being a visual designer, really wouldn’t want to stay
in Pinegrow simply because it is focus more on the code. The best solution
for me, if I want to create a fully responsive site, would be to choose
something like Sparkle or Blocs to have a rather easy means of creating
responsive designs (something I never was able to accomplish in Freeway,
because I lack the time, dedication and metal skills that other Freeway
users have; namely, Thomas K. and Ernie S.).

–James Wages

Within the last week(s) you recommended:

  • Adobe Muse
  • Flux
  • Blocs
  • Sparkle

Furthermore you’re obviously a big fan of Coffee Cup stuff.

####This all is fine - nothing against (but for each is a special list available where you can share your wisdom much better than here).

###But this is the Pinegrow talk!

Within this talk, all you had to add is, that it isn’t able to manage and create projects which is proven wrong cause of the master-page concept ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3RWFFFYyZc&list=PLNHKFtMjaNvHsj33uU9i-gPPFRh-UFyYa&index=5 ).

You’re trying to upset some brave people giving it go. Some could have the impression that you’re a babbler. Trying to recommend James D. Wages to use Blocs is a daring step (if you would know him).

As previously said, Pinegrow isn’t an alternative to nothing - it’s an exceptional concept. It requires some basic knowledge - which isn’t too hard to achieve.

And with a little bit of the help of our wizzes here, it could be upset very “Freeway-like” (even above). It has Bootstrap, Bootstrap Blocks, Foundation, Materialize and even Angular.js ready to start.

Actions could be seen as pre-made blocks. All it requires is code-affine people doing code-affine work, allowing you to work from scratch.

Cheers

Thomas


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Thomas, what is the “basic knowledge” that is required to use Pinegrow?

I watched your video and saw you easily import your existing site, then change text, all without using code or reading a manual. So again, what knowledge is required to use Pinegrow?

–James Wages


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On 3 Aug 2016, at 01:04, JDW wrote:

David, thank you for your two helpful replies. Regarding CMS, is that how you would categorize an off-site hosted FileMaker Pro database?

We host 2 databases with MacUSA because, quite frankly, they are the cheapest FileMaker host out there, and they’ve done a great job for us for the last few years:

MacUSA.net FileMaker 12 Hosting

We just link to a login page hosted on their server for our dealers to login and access wiring data. To make changes, we just upload the updated FM database. It uses FM IWP, somewhat dated but much cheaper down the line than price categories the newest FM versions force you into.

I’m just trying to get my head around what defines a CMS. For if our FM database is defined as CMS, then how is our base website defined seeing we host it on a server in CA that doesn’t belong to us, and we are based in Japan?

I’ve not used FileMaker beyond v6, but still use that for accounts. As a web interface to an FM database that interface could be considered an extreme web CMS because it’s seen as a database and its website aspect is usually overlooked. Using it as a website is something I hadn’t considered before. I gather there is now sql access to a FM database which I would hope could be accessed by php routines to populate web page items just like with MySQL. I wouldn’t know if the FM web presentation uses SQL/PHP or some private internal method. As long as you can design a FM layout that gives you the ‘web’ appearance you want it sounds like a really good way of doing a CMS website.

A possible definition of a CMS is that the data being shown is inserted programatically at display (serving) time, rather than being inserted via keyboard before upload.

In around 2010 I converted an FM database to MySQL by showing the whole thing as a huge single page website, capturing the source, and using TextWrangler global replace (via many intermediate versions) into SQL INSERT statements.

David


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Jumping in here: I have used Pinegrow, and I can’t imagine there is any learning curve to opening an existing site and changing words. But if you open a blank page, the difference between it and Freeway is really striking.

If you’re familiar with Bootstrap and its conventions and available components, then the options of what you can drag to the page and start customizing (it’s really just like using Backdraft, in a way) will seem familiar enough. There are pre-built rows (horizontal slices of the page) with various popular layouts, like the “3 circular icons with a short product feature below each” module, or the “big-ass Carousel” module. If you see something you like in the stack of possible layout parts, and drag it to the screen, you can then start fiddling with it. The tools for this are not as straightforward or discoverable as I would like, but they are there. If you can organize your design thoughts around a 12-column grid (kinda like looking through a picket fence at your mental sketch) then I can imagine it being a very productive tool after an initial bit of head-scratching.

The primary benefit of this application is that you are building on top of a framework that gives you responsive for free. You can very easily build a layout in one breakpoint, without looking at the others, and get something workable at all breakpoints without thinking about it or click-click-dragging anything. The convenience and speed of this approach cannot be overstated.

Bootstrap makes it incredibly easy to build a “Bootstrap-looking” site. I can make something handsome in moments, using a text editor and a collected understanding of what the classnames are and how they have to be nested in order for the layout to work. Pinegrow makes it easy to get this part right. You pay for that ease with the *“80% problem”, unless your client likes that look, in which case you make bank and go home early.

Like any opinionated framework, Bootstrap makes it very difficult to go off the rails and do something unique. I’m not saying this is impossible – it’s very definitely not – but you have to know the rules in order to break them here. Contrast that with Freeway’s cheerful long toss of the rules into the middle distance, letting you do anything you want and writing whatever tortured HTML+CSS is necessary to support this ignorance whenever you press Publish. If a blank page fills you with inspiration, rather than dread, then the DTP approach (not present in Pinegrow as far as I can see) will be your best friend forever. If you prefer a set of guides, then the Bootstrap Pinegrow technique can give you a great starting point, at the expense of making it harder to make something that doesn’t look like every other Bootstrap site.

I’m not choosing sides here, mind you, because I have noticed my own designs becoming less ambitious since I learned the rules. But my newer pages are much more efficient and easier to use as templates, and that does matter for the kind of work I do.

Walter

*The last 20% of the job consumes 80% of the budget/time.

On Aug 6, 2016, at 12:22 AM, JDW email@hidden wrote:

Thomas, what is the “basic knowledge” that is required to use Pinegrow?

I watched your video and saw you easily import your existing site, then change text, all without using code or reading a manual. So again, what knowledge is required to use Pinegrow?

–James Wages


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For myself, if a grid is the primary reason for considering Bootstrap or Foundation then Susy http://susy.oddbird.net/ is a much lighter, more flexible and far less intrusive alternative. Of course it requires Sass but that’s just the cherry on top as far as I’m concerned.

In some respects I can definitely see the appeal of Bootstrap and Foundation but they come too much overhead and yes, that ubiquitous Boot “look” for my taste. I never liked the sledgehammer approach. But that’s me, clearly I’m in the minority considering Bootstrap’s widespread use.

For better or worse Bootstrap (and to a lesser extent Foundation) knowledge is almost expected in the majority of the corporate jobs I see listed. I think a lot of companies simply don’t investigate their options, they pick what they think “everyone else” is using or because it’s the “buzzword of the month” and run with it.

If you want a grid without all that canned stuff then Susy is worth a look, plus you get Sass for free.

Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
https://qreativ.space https://qreativ.space/

Like any opinionated framework, Bootstrap makes it very difficult to go off the rails and do something unique.


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From my brief experience with Pinegrow I think it’s an interesting tool. I would consider using it for prototyping, especially if Bootstrap was a requirement.

Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955

Jumping in here: I have used Pinegrow


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Hi guys,

@James

I’ve allowed myself wrapping your question into a lil screencast:

I double Todd’s concerns about the “bloated” framework approach(es). As Walter already mentioned, a no-brainer though.

I’m currently working on my own lil basic starter kit. Pinegrow allows creating reusable snippets - so the “start from scratch” is less daunting and even if it sounds a bit arrogant:

My self-developed grid is still the best.

Some work to do - but web design is work - even a job.

Cheers

Thomas


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Yeah, reusable code is a hugely efficient time-saver, be it Pinegrow or any proper text editor.

Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955

Pinegrow allows creating reusable snippets - so the “start from scratch” is less daunting


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@ Thomas
I presume you are a big fan of Pinegrow?

Anyway, there are more roads that lead to Rome. All of those mentioned
programs fullfill needs we all have, only those needs are not the same. I
think they’re all worth a serious trial.
If you’re a designer and want freedom in a dtp-like way as Freeway did:
choose Muse (large community)
If you want to build a site userfriendly, visually and quick: get Sparkle
(adaptive like FW7) or Blocs (responsive included)
If you like to code more: choose Flux (just a few bucks now at Bundlehunt)
or Pinegrow, or better Dreamweaver,
If you want a better, more flexible framework than Bootstrap (I totally
agree with Walter) in a user friendly environment: choose CC’s Visual Site
Designer (=Foundation Framer, but still in beta).
If you want to make an easy step to Wordpress, choose Cloud-press
(discounted at MightyDeals)

But hey, thats all what I conclude based on MY wishes and demands. And
workflow. And price.
Different software for different users and different sites for different
clients.

Its the same reason why we all drive different cars.

Succes.

2016-08-06 20:03 GMT+02:00 Todd email@hidden:

Yeah, reusable code is a hugely efficient time-saver, be it Pinegrow or
any proper text editor.

Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
https://qreativ.space

Pinegrow allows creating reusable snippets - so the “start from scratch”
is less daunting


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On 7 Aug 2016, 2:12 am, Andries Kuipers wrote:

@ Thomas
I presume you are a big fan of Pinegrow?

Wrong. I love Design - to be precise Responsible Responsive Design.

Cheers

Thomas


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Thomas,

The Pinegrow licensing/costs/options look a bit convoluted. What Pinegrow version/s did you purchase?

David Owen
Printline Advertising

On 6 Aug 2016, at 17:50, Thomas Kimmich email@hidden wrote:

Hi guys,

@James

I’ve allowed myself wrapping your question into a lil screencast:

Freeway2Pinegrow on Vimeo

I double Todd’s concerns about the “bloated” framework approach(es). As Walter already mentioned, a no-brainer though.

I’m currently working on my own lil basic starter kit. Pinegrow allows creating reusable snippets - so the “start from scratch” is less daunting and even if it sounds a bit arrogant:

My self-developed grid is still the best.

Some work to do - but web design is work - even a job.

Cheers

Thomas


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I got the pro individual account, without the WP feature.

Walter

On Aug 8, 2016, at 6:17 AM, David Owen email@hidden wrote:

Thomas,

The Pinegrow licensing/costs/options look a bit convoluted. What Pinegrow version/s did you purchase?

David Owen
Printline Advertising
http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk
http://www.davidowendesign.com

On 6 Aug 2016, at 17:50, Thomas Kimmich email@hidden wrote:

Hi guys,

@James

I’ve allowed myself wrapping your question into a lil screencast:

Freeway2Pinegrow on Vimeo

I double Todd’s concerns about the “bloated” framework approach(es). As Walter already mentioned, a no-brainer though.

I’m currently working on my own lil basic starter kit. Pinegrow allows creating reusable snippets - so the “start from scratch” is less daunting and even if it sounds a bit arrogant:

My self-developed grid is still the best.

Some work to do - but web design is work - even a job.

Cheers

Thomas


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