Freeway Alternative - The Elephant In The Room

Freeway
19

Hi Doty. See my (inline) answers below.

Todd,

I’ve been thinking of Coda quite a bit. I’m not sure I’m ready to handle hand-coding exclusively, but I do see the benefit of learning more about coding and being less dependent on software holding my hand. I’ve only used v1 of Coda and have not yet purchased the upgrade. But I have a few questions for you:

Aside from having absolute control over the end result I was able to mimic certain features like Master Pages.

How do you manage to mimic Master Pages? I’d love to hear more about this. And my 2nd question is related:

A Master page in FW is a template…a shortcut for making new pages, nothing more. It’s the scaffolding (HTML) of a complete page, and whatever else you choose to include be it CSS, js etc.

One way to mimic this “shortcut” is to simply create a Snippet (or many Snippets) of this outer HTML structure for a particular page or layout. What’s nice about Coda is that it allows to save Snippets for global use or for a specific project so it helps keep things tidy.

Once you have your Snippet(s) you can create a new (blank) .html file and with a click insert your complete “master page” Snippet code into it and you’re off and running. Then it’s simply a matter of adding content etc.

There are many ways to approach it and this is just one. What works best will depend in part on the type of site you’re building (static vs. dynamic), but at its most basic this one way to go about it and is how I began. In time I eventually broke the outer structure down into smaller components because that’s what I needed but initially I started with a complete page.

How is site management handled with hand-coded websites?

If by “management” you mean the actual content then I use a CMS of some flavor. However, if you’re referring to the actual site files (HTML, CSS, js, PHP etc.) then it’s entirely up to you to keep things organized. If you’re using a CMS then there might be certain folder/file structures you need to observe but generally speaking you put things where you want them.

When I finally began moving my sites (built with FWP) to Coda the “transition” was little more than me opening Freeway’s generated (HTML, CSS and js) files and looking at the code. That’s how I started.

This makes sense to me and feels like a logical next step. But I’ve read about FW creating bloated code, using weird or perhaps less-than-compliant names for things. How do I go about cleaning up the FW code? I know Coda has a split view, but I’m also thinking that I could delete something that seems unnecessary in the moment only to realize down the road that it was necessary in a given circumstance or in a different browser/device or something. How do I know what is superfluous and can be removed/changed/simplified?

I had the same concerns. Here’s what I did:

I started with a personal (not a client) site and I duplicated every file FW generated and I set it up as a separate Coda project, a sandbox of sorts. Because I was already visually familiar with the site it was easy to tell when I made a mistake. I used this copy to start trimming the (code) fat which was remarkably easy to do and if I seriously screwed something up I could hit Command+Z as much as I needed to back out.

This hands-on process was a tremendous learning tool. You would be surprised at how quickly you can pick up the basics this way. But I always made sure to type out the code (no copy/paste). You learn stuff faster that way.

Another perhaps related question, I’m using Backdraft to help me with most of the responsive aspects. If I pick up coding from scratch and I dig into the Backdraft templates I’m curious how I will know what is necessary code vs what Caleb added to make it work within the FW ecosystem.

Trial and error. Again, this is why you duplicate your projects and work on those instead of the “real thing” until you get comfortable.

I’m not sure Coda is where I will land when all is said and done, but it does seem a smart evolution of my skill set to me. Additional thoughts welcome…

At this stage, for you, which editor you use is kind of secondary. Coda has a nice Snippet feature and toolset but it’s certainly not (by any stretch) the only option out there.

Whether you eventually use an editor or not is irrelevant. Concern yourself with increasing your code literacy and that will serve you so much better than any tool or tools you end up using, be it an editor or WYSIWYG or some combination thereof.

Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
https://qreativ.space

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20

Here’s what I’m thinking…

My own home-grown “backdraft”???

Over the years I’ve turned Caleb’s backdraft into my own “template” of sorts. I have made a few modifications that make sense to me and I use my “customized backdraft” as my starting point. I’m thinking of trying to pull apart the code in that and use it to build snippets / building blocks to construct my site. Scaffolding is a good word for it. Caleb, am I making too big of an assumption that you would be okay with this???

Between Caleb and Thomas, the concept of “modules” makes sense to me and I’m thinking I could make Coda work in a way that would also make sense to me. I’ve also grown accustomed to using FW master pages in the less traditional sense and more as “modular-holders” for future content.

Master Pages in the FreeWay sense

Am I correct in assuming that hand-coded sites don’t have a “make a change on this page and it changes automatically on other linked pages”?

Site Organization

I’m not talking CMS yet. I want a system that has the ability to add that when the time comes, but what I mean is I’m trying to wrap my head around the site structure in a text document. This is probably something that I will have to play with to begin to get a feel for. But for example, if I had a site with a home page, an about page and a contact page— would all those pages live in one “Coda” document? Is there any site management built in, or do I take care to maintain all these separate files (much like FW’s own ‘Site Folder’) on my own?

Closing Thoughts

I know Coda is not the be-all-end-all. I tried many of the other editors through the years and Coda is the one that made the most sense to me. I’d still love to find a replacement WYSIWYG builder, but I’m thinking it might not exist. If I have to abandon FW, I want the end result to be better than what I have now and not a step backwards.

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21

Here’s what I’m thinking…

My own home-grown “backdraft”???

Over the years I’ve turned Caleb’s backdraft into my own “template” of sorts. I have made a few modifications that make sense to me and I use my “customized backdraft” as my starting point. I’m thinking of trying to pull apart the code in that and use it to build snippets / building blocks to construct my site. Scaffolding is a good word for it. Caleb, am I making too big of an assumption that you would be okay with this???

Between Caleb and Thomas, the concept of “modules” makes sense to me and I’m thinking I could make Coda work in a way that would also make sense to me. I’ve also grown accustomed to using FW master pages in the less traditional sense and more as “modular-holders” for future content.

Picking things apart is a great way to learn. I recommend you dismantle anything that catches your interest.

Master Pages in the FreeWay sense

Am I correct in assuming that hand-coded sites don’t have a "make a change on this page and it changes automatically on other linked pages”?

Strictly speaking, no. Or not that I’ve seen. Of course you’re also talking about “static” sites. That said, when you start working with dynamic sites the answer changes.

In either case, because you’re working with text you can do some very elaborate (or simple) find and replace very quickly.

Site Organization

I’m not talking CMS yet. I want a system that has the ability to add that when the time comes, but what I mean is I’m trying to wrap my head around the site structure in a text document. This is probably something that I will have to play with to begin to get a feel for. But for example, if I had a site with a home page, an about page and a contact page— would all those pages live in one “Coda” document? Is there any site management built in, or do I take care to maintain all these separate files (much like FW’s own ‘Site Folder’) on my own?

There is no such thing as a “Coda document”. When you add a site to Coda all you’re doing is telling Coda to “watch this folder and all its files”. Coda simply mirrors the folder/file structure in its “Files” sidebar. Not unlike what you see in Transmit or Finder. Coda does not impose itself on how you choose to organize things.

Closing Thoughts

I know Coda is not the be-all-end-all. I tried many of the other editors through the years and Coda is the one that made the most sense to me. I’d still love to find a replacement WYSIWYG builder, but I’m thinking it might not exist. If I have to abandon FW, I want the end result to be better than what I have now and not a step backwards.

It’s a matter of learning the best way to accomplish a specific task. Once you understand the rules you can then make informed decisions as to when to bend those rules and when it’s appropriate to break them. No tool can teach you those things. But what that knowledge affords you is the ability to recognize when your tool(s) are doing things you don’t want them to.

Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
https://qreativ.space

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22

It depends on how you have structured your site. Dreamweaver had this notion of templates that was actually very similar to this, when used with their static content system Contribute. There you would create a template, mark off areas as editable, and then the client or editor would be able to see a WYSIWYG content entry system for just those areas.

Another approach is what is known as Server Side Includes or SSI. This is a very old system – predates PHP and maybe Perl. It relies on an Apache server feature to combine partial page elements into a finished whole.

And if you are using CSS to style the layout, then yes, this feature already exists in any HTML site – if you change the one CSS file, all of the HTML pages that include that file will change their appearance to match. This requires that you do have some sort of basic structure to the way you have coded your page, but witness the many varieties of what came out of the CSS Zen Garden. One HTML file, thousands of different looks, based on as many different CSS files.

Walter

On Aug 15, 2016, at 6:14 PM, Doty email@hidden wrote:

Am I correct in assuming that hand-coded sites don’t have a “make a change on this page and it changes automatically on other linked pages”?

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23

Hi guys,

apologize entering the room with elephant, but made my thoughts about this. I am not aware what Snippets in Coda is, but assumed it is similar to “components” in Pinegrow. Allowed me to screencast it:

Cheers

Thomas

Am I correct in assuming that hand-coded sites don’t have a “make a change on this page and it changes automatically on other linked pages”?

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24

Thomas! Thank you!

That video was most helpful! It makes me what to give Pinegrow a try. Yes… You are getting exactly what I’m talking about. I want to create re-usable components for my websites!!! I started to get comfortable with this idea with Backdraft and your talk of “modules.” It’s not exactly the same as a template, but there is some carryover perhaps. It feels more generic than an actual template. Once I have my floats/clears/responsive stuff settled for a 3 column layout I don’t want to have to re-create that every time I need a similar layout.

My “master pages” in FW are little more than header, navmenu, footer. Occassionally I put a paragraph of Lorem text in there just so I don’t have to remember what text styles I want to use, but mostly it is the 3 main components I listed. That is what my “main” master page looks like and it’s what my child pages are linked to. But, I usually have several other “masterpages” that are not real master pages at all. They are not linked to any child pages. They are simply placeholders for these reusable components I want to access easily.

Coda is still helpful for seeing the split view and the code and layout side by side. I like that a lot. It helps me learn what the code is doing in relation to the design. But I’m not ready to take off the training wheels completely. I still want the comfort of an app to hold all this together for me. My elephant is still a baby!

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25

Thomas,

In coda “snippets” are called “clips” to reuse often used code. So for example you could quickly add to start a off a new file/page….

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<title>Page Title</title>
</head>
<body>

<h1>My Heading</h1>
<p>My paragraph.</p>

</body>
</html>

They can also have a keyboard shortcut. So if I type "Lorem ” Coda inserts….

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

–

David Owen
http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk
http://www.davidowendesign.com

On 17 Aug 2016, at 18:02, Thomas Kimmich email@hidden wrote:

I am not aware what Snippets in Coda is,

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26

Hi David,

thanks for this.

I have to admit, that Coda is a lil bit above my head. Its complexity is somehow overwhelming me for whatever reason.

Every year I open it, saying:

“Thomas - now you’ll get it!”

and each time I stare at it a while thinking

“… hm - perhaps next year”.

It’s simply showing me how am I depending on the visual control of all the stuff. So perhaps I’ll never be a full hand coder. Interestingly enough, Brackets doesn’t scare me that much.

Cheers

Thomas

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27

Hi Thomas,

It helps me being well and truly dropped off the deep end having to design and edit responsive email marketing templates (in Coda) for http://www.mail-chute.uk

There’s nothing like the pressure of a deadline to focus the mind.

You mention "visual control of all the stuff”. I often the browser inspector tools as a playground to highlight blocks, edit CSS before committing back to code. The browser reflecting the changes. It’s still very visual.

Coda auto prompts CSS for you so you’re not totally alone.

(Warning turn the sound down!)

–

David Owen
Printline Advertising

On 18 Aug 2016, at 16:54, Thomas Kimmich email@hidden wrote:

It’s simply showing me how am I depending on the visual control of all the stuff. So perhaps I’ll never be a full hand coder. Interestingly enough, Brackets doesn’t scare me that much.

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28

Hi Thomas and to everyone else that’s been commenting on this thread.
Thomas, I have to admit every time I launch Coda I am finding that I am not that comfortable with it either. I know it’s just a personal taste but I just don’t feel at home with it. Although I am sure its a great piece of software. Espresso is the same for me as well… although I loved CSSEdit.
I have been testing the latest Dreamweaver Beta and I have to say if you can understand the code a little then I think for those people that are not put off by a subscription base application then it may be a viable alternative to Pinegrow which also looks good to me as well.

As far as I am seeing… there are going to be two distinct directions which Freeway users will ultimately need to take… One is the direction taken by blocks, sparkle etc which more akin to a drag and drop but limited control and the other is the code editor route which has a decent user interface (for those that just don’t like using a pure editor like TextMate or Sublime).

There is no Freeway comparable application, so at the moment It’s looking a bit grim for those that can’t make the jump to a more advanced but ultimately scarier application, because for the first time in a little while, an application is not being superseded by something better, and therefore people are going to have to compromises on what they can do, or change!!

Max

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29

Nicely said Max!

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30

I think everyone is slowly realising that if they’re going to rely on a “does all” app to build a site you’ll have to stay within what ever perimeters that app restricts you to.

Freeway allowed a more “build whatever you want” approach. Albeit getting some users in a pickle with responsive layouts and third party code.

The future is looking like having a multiple set of tools/skills to suit requirements.

–

David Owen
Printline Advertising
http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk
http://ineedwebhosting.co.uk
http://www.davidowendesign.com

On 19 Aug 2016, at 13:40, max email@hidden wrote:

There is no Freeway comparable application, so at the moment It’s looking a bit grim for those that can’t make the jump to a more advanced but ultimately scarier application, because for the first time in a little while, an application is not being superseded by something better, and therefore people are going to have to compromises on what they can do, or change!!

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31

Yep - guys, all well said.

I think I understand code and can handle it. Exactly for this reason, it’s more and more clear that I go with Pinegrow. It’s somehow unique. It’s not an application, because it doesn’t create a dot.whatever (!important). It’s as well not a code editor - somehow. It has things I missed in Freeway for many years.

I don’t want to be heroic - but every time I work in it, I think on you guys. About all the stuff we discussed the last past years. I think about action writers being able to extend the core functionality. I think about web yep and what could be done to “integrate” it. I think about Ernie who said: “Why not placing content first and wrap it in elements later”.

All this makes me pretty sure, assumed one can handle code, being close to the “correct” match once substituting Freeway. Meanwhile it will be important to have a deeper look into Max’s entirely revised ID2class action.

My workspace is unusual (for a Freeway-user) anyway. I do FW for framework, typography and color, Brackets for all fancy stuff, CodeKit to handle concatenate and compiling - handling all external stuff.

So I’d look relaxed into the future. But can’t cause I’m a lil bit sad losing sight of you all brave guys.

Cheers

Thomas

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32

I’ve been thinking the same, Thomas. While I’m glad that Walter started the google group in case this forum goes down, I’ve been wondering if we should do something in addition to that??? There are not many people contributing on the new Google group.

I joined the Pinegrow Slack group yesterday. I’ve wondered if slack would work well for all of us sad-but-eventually-ex-freeway-users.

I think I can manage web design without Freeway, but doing it without the core group on this FWT… now that is just too much! Thoughts?? Suggestions??

So I’d look relaxed into the future. But can’t cause I’m a lil bit sad losing sight of you all brave guys.

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33

Doty,

If by “in addition to” you mean something that isn’t a forum or list or any other type of “threaded" platform then QREATiv was built to be a “community” type platform for those wanting to publish more fleshed-out content.

It’s free. You have full control over everything you upload/publish. It’s organized. It’s searchable. And it’s easy-to-use.

No, it’s not intended for quick on-the-fly responses like FWT, Google Groups, ad nauseam, that’s the point. But if you want something a little different then yes, it’s an option for those who enjoy writing tutorials or non-technical articles, and for those looking for answers.

Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
https://qreativ.space

While I’m glad that Walter started the google group in case this forum goes down, I’ve been wondering if we should do something in addition to that???

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34

Hi Todd. I’ve enjoyed reading several posts on QREATiv. It’s a great resource, but it’s not what I meant. I mean a place where we can talk back and forth like we do here and continue the community we have built with one another. I thought the google groups would be that, but it feels like only a couple of people are active on that and I’m wondering if it has long enough legs to last. Perhaps after the FWT goes down it will get more active. FWT will go down one of these days, I just hope it’s not for a couple of years yet.

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35

My guess is a lot of people on FWT just aren’t aware of the FWT Google Group.

Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
https://qreativ.space

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36

My guess is a lot of people on FWT just aren’t aware of the FWT Google Group.

Which may explain why there aren’t many hard-headed freeloaders there demanding answers that don’t make them learn anything new.

The community works best for me when there is an interesting puzzle to solve, some open minds to comment on the process… and gratitude. Also, the email notifications-- so I can weed out what doesn’t work for me.

I have enjoyed the comraderie (sp?) of this group over the years. Walking among giants has made me feel somehow taller and more able to take big strides.

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37

agreed.

I have enjoyed the comraderie (sp?) of this group over the years. Walking among giants has made me feel somehow taller and more able to take big strides.

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38

[Laughs] Ernie, sometimes I think we are brothers from other mothers.

Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
https://qreativ.space

Which may explain why there aren’t many hard-headed freeloaders there demanding answers that don’t make them learn anything new.

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