OK, whats going on here?

Legacy Intaglio
1

This happened in 2.9.8, so I finally got round to upgrading to 3.01. Same problem.

  1. Download the following file:

http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mjr/Geo%20Diag%20test4.intaglio.zip

  1. Don’t worry what its about, just go to Moorgate, it’s inside the big red circle.

  2. Now, look at the Northern Line (the black line going north south). Thats not very good, its supposed to be aligned with the circles, so pull it to the left slightly until the smartguides snap on.

  3. Now look at the Metropolitan Line at Moorgate (purple, east-west). Its supposed to be touching the yellow (Circle Line) so nudge it up.

  4. Now save the file and reload. That’s had no effect, everything has moved back to where it was before.

  5. Try everything until anger/despair break in. Draw a new line, draw an extra line, copy to a different layer. Nothing stops these lines moving back to where they were before.

Well, actually, there is one fix, create a new blank file, and copy everything over, and now it seems to work. This is a pain though because I lose the layers, and have to recreate and realign them, and as I said in another post, it doesn’t matter what you are trying to create, if you can’t trust the object positioning, then there is a serious problem.

I deduce that some sort of file corruption is taking place, but why won’t save-as fix it? So, my questions:

A) What is causing this?

B) What steps can I take to stop this from happening?

C) If it does happen, is there a way to force everythign back to normal?

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2

I know this map well; I used to travel the Northern line every day.

Northern Line alignment:

  1. Select the Line and two circles.

  2. Open the Align palette, tick ‘Horizontal’ and click the ‘Center’ button.

Forget about snapping to guides; they just mess things up (in any program, not just Intaglio).

Likewise the strokes; try not to use Snap to Guides.
Also, the points in each path should be joined to form a continuous path (see Metropolitan Line, below).

The Metropolitan Line:

  1. Select the Point Selection tool—the open arrow—and select each point. To extend or shorten the path, drag a point with the Shift key held down. Shift constrains drawing to the horizontal, vertical and 45 degrees.

  2. Choose the Point Selection tool (X) and move the points away from each other.

  3. Select both points.

  4. Go to Object>Paths>Join.

There will now be an excess point. Delete it.

If necessary, realign the lines to Horizontal, Vertical, or 45 degrees by dragging points with the Point Selection tool (X), remembering to hold down the Shift key.

To butt the lines relative to each other:

  1. Switch to the Zoom tool (Z).

  2. Drag a marquee (describe an oblong) over where you want to move the path. Do this twice; when I did this, Intaglio zoomed to 7820%.

  3. Switch to the main Selection tool (S) and drag the path manually until the edges are aligned with the neighbouring path.

That’s about it.

Hope it helps.

Ian

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3

Thanks,

I’m going to take this one step at a time. Yes, there are workarounds, but we need to get to the bottom of this. As I have said before, object corruption in a program is deadly. If object location on the screen can’t be trusted, then bin the program.

Smart-guides isn’t the issue. The issue is that I make a change, save it, and the program refuses to recognise the change.

OK, try this:

My three interchange circles at Monument are diagonally aligned, so I don’t want to move them, otherwise I will have to realign. So, I don’t really want to have to so an unconstrained align because all objects tend to relocate.

So, I lock the Northern Line interchange circle at Monument, select the Northern Line at this location, and do align centre. The Northern Line moves left to match the alignment of the circle.

Now save and reopen. Try it, you will find that the Northern Line has moved back right again.

Max

From: email@hidden on behalf of IanB
Sent: Tue 21/10/2008 18:47
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: OK, whats going on here?

I know this map well; I used to travel the Northern line every day.

Northern Line alignment:

  1. Select the Line and two circles.

  2. Open the Align palette, tick ‘Horizontal’ and click the ‘Center’ button.

Forget about snapping to guides; they just mess things up (in any program, not just Intaglio).

Likewise the strokes; try not to use Snap to Guides.
Also, the points in each path should be joined to form a continuous path (see Metropolitan Line, below).

The Metropolitan Line:

  1. Select the Point Selection tool-the open arrow-and select each point. To extend or shorten the path, drag a point with the Shift key held down. Shift constrains drawing to the horizontal, vertical and 45 degrees.

  2. Choose the Point Selection tool (X) and move the points away from each other.

  3. Select both points.

  4. Go to Object>Paths>Join.

There will now be an excess point. Delete it.

If necessary, realign the lines to Horizontal, Vertical, or 45 degrees by dragging points with the Point Selection tool (X), remembering to hold down the Shift key.

To butt the lines relative to each other:

  1. Switch to the Zoom tool (Z).

  2. Drag a marquee (describe an oblong) over where you want to move the path. Do this twice; when I did this, Intaglio zoomed to 7820%.

  3. Switch to the main Selection tool (S) and drag the path manually until the edges are aligned with the neighbouring path.

That’s about it.

Hope it helps.

Ian

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4

Yes, I do all that, but I am so nervous about object corruption in Intaglio now that I leave linking paths until last, when I know that all objects are in the right place, and are not going to move out of place when I turn my back.

I’m getting object corruption when I link paths too. For example, two arcs either side of a dead horizontal line. Link them up, turn my back, and when I look again one arc has been corrupted and the horizontal line is no longer horizontal. I adjust them back using the control handles and save and, surprise surprise, it has no effect, the objects are corrupted in the original way. I have a file that I will post tomorrow which shows the result of exactly this.

And even in version 3, I am finding that shift-dragging a diagonal line can still throw it off 45 degrees, often by a very long way.

Max

The Metropolitan Line:

  1. Select the Point Selection tool-the open arrow-and select each point. To extend or shorten the path, drag a point with the Shift key held down. Shift constrains drawing to the horizontal, vertical and 45 degrees.

  2. Choose the Point Selection tool (X) and move the points away from each other.

  3. Select both points.

  4. Go to Object>Paths>Join.

There will now be an excess point. Delete it.

If necessary, realign the lines to Horizontal, Vertical, or 45 degrees by dragging points with the Point Selection tool (X), remembering to hold down the Shift key

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5

Hello Max,
I have tried to move your lines, circles in your file ; then to save,
close, reload the file ; every thing I have done is OK when the file
is opened again ! So I think the bug is not in your file, but
elsewhere ¿?¿?; I have Intaglio 3.0.1, MacOS 10.4.11, iMacG5
jacques

Le 21 oct. 08 à 22:57, Roberts, Maxwell J a écrit :

Yes, I do all that, but I am so nervous about object corruption in
Intaglio now

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6

Jacques,

Did you try to move just the black line and leave the circles in the same place? My problem is that for some reason the vertical black line refuses to centre over the circles. Could you email me the file you created so I can have a look.

I’ve been getting this problem with all recent versions of Intaglio, on 10.4.9 to 10.4.11. Both computers are Intel Mac Mini, 2GB RAM (one at home, one at work, same problem on both). I’ve been getting it on lots and lots of files and, interestingly, this problem is happening more and more often. However, I scrubbed all my caches yesterday using Tiger Cache Cleaner, which did not help.

Intuitively, this sort of problem feels like a memory problem: overload the memory and the files get corrupted. Because these files have lots of objects, memory is always going to be under pressure.

Unfortunately, 2GB is all that you can get into a Mac Mini. Next step up is a Mac Pro. Ouch (current iMacs have a very reflective screen, they don’t work for me, not an option, I have to have a non-reflective screen).

Max

From: email@hidden on behalf of Jacques Villars
Sent: Tue 21/10/2008 22:10
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: OK, whats going on here?

Hello Max,
I have tried to move your lines, circles in your file ; then to save,
close, reload the file ; every thing I have done is OK when the file
is opened again ! So I think the bug is not in your file, but
elsewhere ¿?¿?; I have Intaglio 3.0.1, MacOS 10.4.11, iMacG5
jacques

Le 21 oct. 08 à 22:57, Roberts, Maxwell J a écrit :

Yes, I do all that, but I am so nervous about object corruption in
Intaglio now

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7

Le 21 oct. 08 à 23:34, Roberts, Maxwell J a écrit :

Jacques,

Did you try to move just the black line and leave the circles in
the same place?

yes

My problem is that for some reason the vertical black line refuses
to centre over the circles. Could you email me the file you created
so I can have a look.

it is done

jacques

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8

Jacques,

Thanks for the file.

This is bizarre.

I used the arrow key to move the line one pixel right, then one pixel
left, saved the file, and quit. When I reopened the line had sprung
to the left again, back to its usual (wrong) position.

If I do the same but save as pdf, and then open the pdf with
Intaglio, its in the right place.

What is going on?

Max

[N.B. there is a very good reason for wanting to get to the bottom of
this rather than a bodge. I only noticed this because this line was
way off. When I looked more closely, it turned out that a couple of
other lines were off too. I can’t therefore guarantee that I can spot
everything that is going wrong. Therefore, prevention is better than
cure.]

On 21 Oct 2008, at 22:59, Jacques Villars wrote:

Le 21 oct. 08 à 23:34, Roberts, Maxwell J a écrit :

Jacques,

Did you try to move just the black line and leave the circles in
the same place?

yes

My problem is that for some reason the vertical black line refuses
to centre over the circles. Could you email me the file you
created so I can have a look.

here it is : but I have not your fonts

<mime-attachment.txt>

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9

For the record, just rebooted in Leopard (ugh) using a clean factory-fresh
system. Exactly the same problem with the file, so no blaming Unsanity
Software or anyone else.

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10

No problems here.

Try copying and pasting the lines only into a new document with a single layer. Realign the circles and lines as described, save and reopen. If everything works, gradually add the other elements on separate layers. If the problem returns, it could be connected to the multiple layers.

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11

Pasting into a new document did fix it, but a real real pain to do. The
new document has multiple layers.

This same problem has not appeared yet, so layers don’t automatically
cause this problem. Can’t remember whether I have had similar problems in
my pre-layer days, but I can’t live without layers now!

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, IanB wrote:

No problems here.

Try copying and pasting the lines only into a new document with a single
layer. Realign the circles and lines as described, save and reopen. If
everything works, gradually add the other elements on separate layers.
If the problem returns, it could be connected to the multiple layers.

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