[Pro] Can't Stop .style1. .style 2...

I’ve been carefully monitoring my styles so as not to get any temporaries to show up. But, they still do!

I have styles for blocks of text. Then I made a .white style to style certain words white. This, it seems, creates temporary styles. Am I doing something wrong?

Why don’t temp styles pop up when making selected text .strong? Isn’t that the same principle?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Bob


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So…is there anyway to make this work properly? Why is it when I just style one word in a styled paragraph I get a new .style?

Bob


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On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:29, Robert Bovasso wrote:

So…is there anyway to make this work properly? Why is it when I
just style one word in a styled paragraph I get a new .style?

A paragraph is what is called a ‘Block element’ which means that if
you style one word of it, you style it all (the ‘Block’). If you want
to style one word of a paragraph, you need to have a ‘span’ style that
only applies to that word; Freeway is making it for you, and you can
rename it to reflect better what it does.

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

http://www.paulbradforth.com


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On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:39, Paul Bradforth wrote:

Freeway is making it for you, and you can rename it to reflect
better what it does.

This is helpful, but doesn’t answer the question of why Freeway
sometimes creates and substitutes a temporary style when there’s an
already existing permanent one.

I’ve even had circumstances where I apply a permanent style, but it’s
swapped for a newly-created temporary one which is identical in every
respect. I have to use the Styles Inspector to clear the temp one and
reapply the one I wanted before.

It can get very frustrating, not to say time-consuming, because the
simple act of editing a paragraph can spawn a temporary style, even
when you’ve not actually made a style change at all.

Heather


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That’s what’s happening. I’ve created a style for the bold or colored text, applied it to the block, and Freeway creates yet another style.

I don’t get it.

Bob


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On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:49, Robert Bovasso wrote:

I don’t get it.

Apologies for the double post. My email has been playing up today.

Heather


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I also am a little flummoxed by this, but I think maybe I see the reasoning behind it. It has to do with the difference between the way CSS “styles” are written and the way page layout applications write code. And also what’s considered good CSS practice. But I might be wrong!

OK, I know CSS styles are written into the HTML documents. (Or kept as a main style sheet, but I don’t think that matters.) I also think that, in good practice, CSS styles are supposed to be cascading. That is, if I have a “main style” for, say, paragraphs of text, it should be defined to be a dot-p style. Then, any “styles” that could possibly be applied to text styled with the dot-p style are written as “substyles” of dot-p.

But here’s where CSS gets a bit wonky compared to the page layout applications I’m used to. If I look at Tagged Text exported from InDesign or --god forbid-- Quark XPress, character level tags are just wrapped around the text. Non-defined tags, such as bold or italic, just get stuck in as appropriate.

In the source code for CSS based HTML from FW, all the tags I see are defined in terms of Classes. (And note that here I know only enough to be dangerous.) The Classes are defined in the CSS style sheet. ALL tagging seems to want to be, I assume according to best practice, some subset of some other Class.

In other words, FW doesn’t want to just wrap an “em” or “strong” or “font color” around some text, and be done with it. But if I’ve got three or four or dozens of types of paragraph level styling defined – .pindentfirst, .pindentfirstpadleft, blah blah blah-- every time I apply a “style” such as coloring to one of those paragraphs, FW wants to be able to create yet another subsubsub Class that it can write into the CSS styles in my HTML document header: .pindentfirstcoloryellow, or whatever, and apply to my HTML text as a class, not just a lone tag.

Well, that’s probably a good idea, as far as it goes. But then if I want to add some yellow text to a paragraph styled .pindentfirstpadleft, FW insists that’s going to be yet another style, and creates a temp style, right? So FW creates one of these temporary styles to very helpfully tell me it’s going to write that style --which according to it I haven’t yet defined, and I guess in some arcane CSS best practice system, I haven’t-- into my HTML page. Whew. For instance, I have a permanent .style4 in a document I’ve been creating with exquisite, excruciating care to use only Edited Styles. The d*mnable style does nothing except align left. And I’ve no way that I can find to Find what text this has this orphan, useless, redundant style.

(And yes, I know I must have done something to create it. It’s my fault, but it still drives me crazy. It’s too helpful, because there’s no way now to fix my document so that the style doesn’t have to be written as such. It can’t really be best practice to have all these orphan styles bloating my HTML. They should be organized into the style sheet. But now I can’t do that, without going through my entire FW document, word by word, watching the Inspector to see where this subsubsubsubsub…style has been applied. Or am I missing some nifty trick to Find By Style?)

So I think, if I knew I was going to have 2 styles, each of which might get some yellow text, I’d need four FW styles.
Is that more or less correct? And if so, how do we stop it? Or maybe, how do we write cascading styles so that we can base them on each other, include the ability to make some little bit of text some “style” (particular font, color, weight, etc.) we know we’re going to want to use, but not have like a jillion different syles?

I can’t find any information in the FW documentation about basing styles on styles. I kind of think that’s what I need to be doing to avoid the subsubsub… temporary styles syndrome. But maybe not! any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.


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On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:49, Robert Bovasso wrote:

That’s what’s happening. I’ve created a style for the bold or
colored text, applied it to the block, and Freeway creates yet
another style.

If this is to be applied to just a few words, it shouldn’t be applied
to the whole block …

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

http://www.paulbradforth.com


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On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:45, Heather Kavanagh wrote:

On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:39, Paul Bradforth wrote:

Freeway is making it for you, and you can rename it to reflect
better what it does.

This is helpful, but doesn’t answer the question of why Freeway
sometimes creates and substitutes a temporary style when there’s an
already existing permanent one.

True, and I maybe missed that through not reading the original post;
apologies to all.

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

http://www.paulbradforth.com


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I now always work with the text tab of the inspector open and have to
constantly check what Freeway is doing when I paste text or when I change
parameters of a style.

I also see what seems to be new styles for identical parameters and I also
see weird things from copy and paste within Freeway where I can suddenly
discover that:

body
Strong

has become:

body
Strong
body
Strong
body
Strong
body
Strong

Generally I have avoided applying styles to anything but the text itself so
far.

In many other ways Freeway is such an enabler that I put up and generally
shut up. But I hope Freeway can become a more solid, easy to use and
dependable application in a design minded way in the new way of web
technology. I don’t doubt but this is Softpress’ desire also.

regards
Brian


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Well, anyone can try it.

Make a paragraph style. I’ve altered the “p” style as per Dan’s video tutorial. I apply that to my block of text.

Then, I make, say, bold, red style. I go back to my paragraph, highlight the word I want to make bold and red, and style it with my bold, red style sheet. If I go back to my style palette, I see a new .style2 (or whatever) in my palette.

And it continues to make them as I change all words needed to my new style.

Very annoying…

Bob


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On 15 Sep 2009, at 20:14, Robert Bovasso wrote:

Well, anyone can try it.

Make a paragraph style. I’ve altered the “p” style as per Dan’s
video tutorial. I apply that to my block of text.

Then, I make, say, bold, red style. I go back to my paragraph,
highlight the word I want to make bold and red, and style it with my
bold, red style sheet. If I go back to my style palette, I see a
new .style2 (or whatever) in my palette.

And it continues to make them as I change all words needed to my new
style.

Very annoying…

Try making the style you want to apply from scratch, using the Style
palette. Just make a new style called ‘boldred’ or somesuch. Make it
permanent. Then select your word, and apply that style. Should work …

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

http://www.paulbradforth.com


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That’s what I did. I made a new permanent style and FW made a new .style after I applied it.

Bob


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On 15 Sep 2009, at 20:51, Robert Bovasso wrote:

That’s what I did. I made a new permanent style and FW made a
new .style after I applied it.

Shucks. Well, I’ve no idea why Freeway would do that, although I admit
I’ve seen it happen more times than I like to think.

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

http://www.paulbradforth.com


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Well, I’ve been mucking about with this, too. If I do it just right, it works as expected. And seems not to be creating tempstyles.

So, have paragraph level styles of any kind. Have a few of’em to test with.

With no text, no items, nothing selected, open the Edit Styles dialog. Use the “+” button to create a new style. In the Editor Panels, add, say, a color to the Character List. Name the style with coloryellow. Check the Permanent box. “OK” it all. Note, this style should end up without the paragraph pilcrow next to it in the Styles palette.

Select some text, apply the character style. Do it to some text in a paragraph styled with a different paragraph-level style. Works fine. My CSS style sheet doc now has “.coloryellow { color:#ff0 }” added to it, and my HTML doc reads

…studies, (lessthansign)span class(greaterthansign)="coloryellow"drawings and(lessthansign)/span(greaterthansign) excerpts…

as expected. Or hoped. (Sorry, I don’t know how to escape the text here to show the signs within the markup text!) My yellow text style remained a character level style, got added simply, and got applied as a simple span wrapped around some text. Nothing happened to any paragraph level styles.

So if it works in some cases, what are we doing wrong to make the routine break and create these temp styles? Other than, of course, styling text in the Inspector Palette. We know that makes’em. I can live with a few of them, especially when they’ve been created to style graphic text of which there will be only one instance: say, creating a heading for the home page only.


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OK, I’ve been driven insane by this long enough to have figured out some of it.

First, creating Styles with tags on them does nothing in the FW document. It probably would have some effect in a browser, but the way FW seems to handle the styling internally messes it up.

E.g.:

h1 = font size 18, bold.
h1.red = color red.
h1.green = color green.
h2 = font size 14, bold.

All of these are permanent, paragraph level styles. So, click cursor into text and use Styles Palette to apply h1. Good, works. Now, apply h1.red. Works: 18 point bold red text. Now, apply h1.green. Works: 18 point bold green text.

Now, apply h2. Oops. 14 point bold green text, with a temporary style h1.style1, or something. A little experimenting with various examples of this sort soon shows that…

  1. Adding a tag to a Style name means nothing to FW’s styling. The tagged Style applies only those attributes defined in the Style. The tagged Style seems not to have any basis in, reliance on, or any relationship to the tag style.
  2. Any attributes applied by the tagged style are treated as if they were what we in DTP used to call local formatting. That is, manually applied formatting. Meaning, a new paragraph level style will not override them, unless that style also has a definition for the same attribute.
  3. Hence, h1.green overrides h1.red because they both have color defined. h2’s size overrides h1.green’s size, because a size is defined in h2.
  4. But, if any style does not have an attribute defined, it can’t override the styling of text that has had that attribute defined. And in that case, a “temporary” style is defined, that holds definitions for all the currently styled attributes. Whew.
  5. The workaround is to select the entire paragraph, including the pillcrow and apply No Style. Then, apply the desired style. I think that usually works.

I guess it all makes a certain amount of sense. I’m accustomed to working with DTP programs in which, come to think of it, pretty much all basic attributes of font, size, color, etc. are defined in style sheets by default. And this is some kind of oddball way to work with “tagged” styles. It looks to me like FW will write the CSS HTML for the defined styles as if there was going to be inheritance.

But if you let FW use the temp styles, there’s something odd (to me) about the way it writes the HTML tags. Probably i don’t know enough about it to see the logic.

So, if you’re going to have color --or anything-- in a tagged style, the supposed base/tag style has to have a “base” definition for that attribute. As does any similar “base” tag: if one h level tag has color, all of them have to.

Or maybe this is old news?


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I also wrote in another thread, that just typing over already styled text makes yet another temp style. That really doesn’t make sense.

Bob


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I likewise wish the whole styling thing could be simplified in some way. I always start off sites with carefully thought-out predefined styles that I think will serve my purpose. But, as is so thoroughly pointed out in this thread, weird things seem to happen with minor changes, anyway – or so it seems to those less savvy to CSS and coding.

As a result, what unfortunately happens for me is that all my good intentions go down the drain. I stop fooling with all those styles. Partly, it’s because as those temporary styles pile up, I begin to fear making global change to something predefined for fear of what it’ll really do to everything in a 50-page site. Can’t lose that much sleep so, regrettably, I revert to simpler measures and rely more and more on the character pane for painless bumps in font size, color, etc. I know that gives me a hundred more temporary styles, but so does the other way.

Maybe one day Softpress can make this as easy as it does the actual designing aspect.


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Well, the worst thing about this is that it seems to me to be inconsistent. In different test, applying tagged styles has sometimes worked as expected–given some new insights into its oddities–and sometimes resulted in temporary styles being created at random.

As far as I’m concerned at the moment, the whole system is just fundamentally broken. And I don’t mean “difficult to understand,” or “abstruse.” I mean, it doesn’t do the same thing twice in a row.


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On 21 Apr 2010, at 22:57, Bucky Edgett wrote:

As far as I’m concerned at the moment, the whole system is just
fundamentally broken. And I don’t mean “difficult to understand,” or
“abstruse.” I mean, it doesn’t do the same thing twice in a row.

I managed to isolate a repeatable temporary style generation instance
yesterday. I sent the files and a report to Softpress to see if they
can pin it down further. I think you’re extensive and detailed report
was useful, too.

I think it’s fair to say SP is aware of this issue now. Let’s hope it
can be fixed.

Cheers

Heather


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