[Pro] FREEWAY BACK

On 7 Jan 2018, 10:53 am, Gordon Low wrote:

They have already announced that Freeway is being rewritten (by one very skilled person) using Swift. To help fund this the programmer is selling copies of his own work Fretspace. Silence does not equate to inaction.

In case some people missed it, regarding Fretspace, Jeremy commented about that and the Freeway rewrite in the following thread.

August 30th 2017

https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/thread/view/173246#m_173246

Jeremy Hughes - “I wrote this partly as a way of learning Swift”

Jeremy Hughes - “I am currently working on a Swift version of Freeway, but I can’t say any more about it than that. It’s a pretty huge task”

So it was twofold, as means for revenue and a means for learning Swift to create the next version of Freeway.

That was only approximately 4+ months ago. So maybe he is still unable to comment further regarding Freeway progress, as it no doubt remains a huge task.


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Has anyone raised the possibility of a Kickstarter campaign to help fund the rebuild?

I, for one, would consider it my duty to financially support the software that has been the backbone of my business for the last 20 years.

Cheers, Ian.


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Mentioned before in earlier mails. Should be a project of the developer in
my humble opinion?

Andries

2018-01-15 18:02 GMT+01:00 Ian Webb email@hidden:

Has anyone raised the possibility of a Kickstarter campaign to help fund
the rebuild?

I, for one, would consider it my duty to financially support the software
that has been the backbone of my business for the last 20 years.

Cheers, Ian.


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Ian, I would suggest you speak to Richard Logan directly about not only your interest in supporting SoftPress in that way, but also to potentially glean an update from him.

So many in this thread are praising SoftPress, trashing SoftPress or just bewildered by SoftPress, when all it takes is just an email to The Big Cheese.

It would not be right of me to post his email address here, and perhaps he would not appreciate me posting a direct link to his LinkedIn profile either. So I will just say this…

Google for 3 keywords that anyone could guess would yield info on the man:

“Richard Logan SoftPress”

Don’t be shy. Just contact him. Ask and ye shall receive. Not receiving anything you want? Perhaps you’re not asking at all, or perhaps your asking the wrong person (i.e., people in this thread).

–James Wages


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Softpress has in the past gone many months, even years between updates, and that was when there were more than one person working on the project. IIRC, the space between Freeway 3.x and 3.5 was huge, and there were equally long spaces between other versions of Freeway. It‘s hard to pinpoint why, but that seems to be just how it is. Small team, loads to do. I remember some of the time being spent on migrating to Carbon, and getting things like font rendering as close to the original pre-OSX as possible. Them going totally silent is, again, normal. They won’t talk about stuff until they are ready to. Yes, it’s disconcerting.

I expect an email from Richard on the subject will be pretty much “hang on in there, we’re doing things, but we can’t talk about it”.

This is Softpress 2.0. The clock started ticking when they reopened the shop. I’m not expecting things to surface for a good while yet.


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Blocs is a one man team and he pushes out updates on a very regular basis with identified bugs usually being fixed in the space of a week. It’s not perfect, but I have faith in the general direction of travel.

I don’t know how long it took him though before version 1 of Blocs was released and Softpress has to deal with the baggage of expectation from previous customers, who will expect any new product to fly out the gate as a world beater. They could be waiting for a very long time.

Ashley


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I haven’t any insight into how Blocs is constructed, but I imagine (given when it first came out) that it is based on the Cocoa Mac OS X frameworks, rather than how Freeway is built (MacApp on “classic” Mac OS, converted to Carbon on Mac OS X). Cocoa came out of the NeXT frameworks, and the marketing buzz around how they leveraged developers’ time (at the time) likened building an app from scratch using them to “building a skyscraper, but getting to start at the 23rd floor”.

Freeway has a quite different problem on its hands now. It has decades of code (and user expectations to go with), and anyone who has tried it will tell you that re-building an existing application is quite a lot harder than starting from nothing. Starting from nothing (well, from an idea) means that you incrementally grow the application in place, and your users’ expectations grow at a similar rate. If I sat you down with the beta version of Freeway that I first encountered in 1997, I doubt you would be confused, but you would miss a lot (a WHOLE LOT) of features and quality that you just expect right now. At the time, nobody knew any better, and so the problem and solutions were well-matched.

The temptation that Jeremy will struggle with at this point in the history of Freeway is to re-build every detail of the application, just as it is, using the new frameworks (and liberally importing existing C and C++ code where he can, to avoid starting over on every detail using Swift or Objective-C). Even the fact that he’s going to use Swift means that the ground is literally moving under his feet as he works, as the language is still growing and maturing (it’s only a few years old). There are still places where one must “get out and push” in Objective-C, because the language support isn’t baked yet. Yet there are things that the frameworks provide that, if he can take a true beginner’s mind look at the problem he’s trying to solve, will be considerably less work than they were in MacApp. The problem with that is that he knows–deeply and completely–how they work now, and getting back to beginner’s mind is frustratingly difficult when you know that much.

If Softpress were to release the Freeway X (like Final Cut Pro X) version of Freeway at some point soon, how loud and angry would the reply be from the experienced users? Recall when Final Cut X came out, and how the press was full of angry cries from experienced editors of “That’s it, I’m going to use Premiere”. That was an example of an application that had a lot of deep features, and the new version had maybe 50% of those features, if I’m charitable, and a workflow that was as “un-Pro” as iMovie. The pros, who had spent years understanding the mindset and workflow of the old application, were suddenly newbies again. At the same time, Final Cut X was a re-set of the whole underlying application, and it paved the way for even more productivity, and better results in less time, if you were willing to re-learn how it wanted you to think.

This is going to be a difficult balancing act for Softpress. They will need the new version to tick off enough boxes for the experienced developers, and to have enough of the magic that Freeway has always delivered so that new users are intrigued and curious enough to try it. But they don’t have to deliver the same application in new clothes, and they don’t have the time to do that even if they wanted to. If they stay close to what the Cocoa frameworks can deliver, and leverage the core OS features in the various *-Kit libraries, they may be able to build 50-70% of Freeway as we know it with a shocking paucity of new code. And that could give them a foundation to build upon, as long as they give it enough Wow to sustain a re-birth.

Walter

On Jan 19, 2018, at 5:58 AM, Ashley via freewaytalk email@hidden wrote:

Blocs is a one man team and he pushes out updates on a very regular basis with identified bugs usually being fixed in the space of a week. It’s not perfect, but I have faith in the general direction of travel.

I don’t know how long it took him though before version 1 of Blocs was released and Softpress has to deal with the baggage of expectation from previous customers, who will expect any new product to fly out the gate as a world beater. They could be waiting for a very long time.

Ashley


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Walter, even if Freeway was rebuilt “100% as we know it” in SWIFT, it would be seriously deficient for most Freeway users in that Freeway Pro 7 right now doesn’t allow dummies to easy build fully RESPONSIVE websites. The Freeway of today and the Freeway 2.0 I fell in love with back in 1999 put all other web design tools to shame when it comes to an intuitive means of dumping my creativity on the web FOR NON-RESPONSIVE WEBSITES. That’s right, Freeway allows even dummies to get content on the web, albeit, not the Responsive kind.

I know some people have been able to use Freeway Pro 5, 6 and 7 to create some amazing Responsive websites, but the techniques required to achieve that are comparably more difficult than in other apps like Blocs. One can argue “but Freeway gives you more control!” all they like, but if I myself cannot get the end result I want in a Responsive website using Freeway, I am not going to use Freeway to create a Responsive site. And guess what? I still don’t have a fully Responsive website to this day. I do, however, have everything else, including Retina optimized graphics, using Freeway. But it’s 2018 now and I am wanting to pacify Google with a “mobile friendly” website to ensure my search rankings don’t take more of a hit than they already have.

If Blocs had an easy means to implement site search (I use Google Custom Search currently) and an easy means to implement responsive tables (for placing tabular data in a web page), I would likely jump ship. But the current version of Blocs lacks those two features, and it’s not clear when it will offer those (probably still one year away) – and yes, I’ve asked.

So I wait for the next version of Freeway and I wait for the next version of Blocs, and whoever satisfies me most fully first will likely win my heart. But it would take less for Freeway X to win my heart in that I’ve been a fan for such a long time and the new version would likely retain at least some Freeway flair that I would prefer over another app.

Any new version of Freeway needs to “wow” us with what it can do on the Responsive Design front, and that includes ease of use. While having a means to add code is a must, the product should not necessarily be a coder-centric app. The following SoftPress catch phrase is what caught me back in the day and I still feel it is applicable today (noting that I don’t need to use code to use FCPX or MS Word or Affinity Designer, etc.):

“FOR THOSE WHO DON’T SEE THE WORLD AS CODE.”

I want a web design tool that is very easy to use, yet powerful (yes, even allow one to extend it with code as they like). But it must allow me to get ALL the web content I have in my existing sites on the web again in Responsive form. If like Blocs it only offers me part of what I need, I will stick to a non-responsive site. I can add things with code to Freeway now, but I don’t like it and it slows me down considerably. Imagine how well Freeway would have faired without Actions. Sure, Actions are “code” but code in a digestible form that most people can implement in a heartbeat.

I think it will be a real challenge to “please everybody” – coders and creative designers too. But if SoftPress can pull it off, they will have a real winner with the potential to achieve things most other web design apps cannot – achieving great responsive sites with all the basics like site search and tabular data, regardless of whether you like to code or not.

–James Wages


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James,

My thoughts and ramblings about “allow me to get ALL the web content I have in my existing sites" for Freeway sites…

I think perhaps we need need to think about what tool/s you need for design, and what tools you need for content. I see your site is packed with lots or designed content all produced within Freeway. Our Printline (Freeway) site is similar, grown over many years. But then it’s painted itself into a corner by being a huge task to make responsive, so big that, it hasn’t been done. I’d need to start again. When a site grows like this, I bet, like me you’ve had that fearful thought, that small change you just made? will Freeway stop publishing? Will be all over?

Let’s disregard the learn code issue for the moment and live in an ideal world. Bear with me…

There’s no doubt Freeway is great at building “responsive” pages to whatever design you can think of (it’s still part of my tool set). Look all the great examples in the forum of creative responsive page, menus, page effect, light-boxes, slideshows etc. Add in a few static Freeway pages of static content for typically a small brochure site. All is good. Probably Freeway’s core market.

Now, when it gets to managing lots of content, pages, images, site search, managing text styles, lots of actions… I could go on. Freeway gets unwieldy.

Now imagine a workflow where…

  1. You design the pages (or a set of templates) in Freeway with little or no content, only headers menus and footers. You get your creative juice imagining the look and feel of the site. And concentrate in making pages responsive. You work on style sheets to prepare what all your typography, and elements will look like.

  2. You need content. You open the CMS in a browser and start to type and add images, You add pages, create “list and detail” pages of products. The images are re-sampled and re-sized for you and are automatically responsive. Lists are kept in alphabetical order. New pages are added to menus on all pages. In the CMS there’s no styles to select or manage (maybe just bold and italic). Everything you add is automated because of all the design work in section (1.). All the content of the site is searchable in a site search. It all looks great on Phones and on Desktop. You concentre only on the content for the user.

  3. The site needs a re-brand? You work on section (1.) in Freeway, publish a handful of templates with it’s CSS. And the CMS with 2,000+ product/pages is updated at the same speed with the new design.

I know, I know, I’ve skirted around a few things here before anyone nit-picks. But the point I’m trying to make is the old ways of making larger Freeway sites is not necessarily the best way. Separating design from content is a well established process. And making responsive pages does NOT have to replicate a flat leaflet/brochure site. Part of the design process must include styling the content. Not adding design for design sake. And accepting in will look different to users on different devices.

In the past I’ve been a reluctant coder, but I’ve always been willing to push the boundaries when I hit any. So the sites I’ve been working with over the last 6 years use Perch CMS where so much automation is possible, it’s refreshing.

Perhaps sharing how I’ve been addressing the problems of making websites with Freeway may help give you a wider view.

David Owen

Creative Design | Print Production | Web Design & Strategy | Domains & Web Hosting

On 19 Jan 2018, at 23:37, JDW email@hidden wrote:

I want a web design tool that is very easy to use, yet powerful (yes, even allow one to extend it with code as they like). But it must allow me to get ALL the web content I have in my existing sites


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Just to consider or comparison: anyone of you who, loves the succesfull
Freeway approach of ‘design first the way as you wanted’, ever take a look
at Muse? It’s most the way of how Freeway works and there are lots of
widgets (incl search, tables, CMS etc. from third party developers.) No
database driven content however if you want to use that in your site. No
standard templates included, start from scratch, but now there are ‘blocks’
to speed up your sitebuilding time. Just google it.

Not to get your head away from Freeway, just to pass the time you have to
wait to see Freeway X rising from the ashes.

Andries

(please, dont mention over and over again the subscription part if you’re a
professional website builder. Only the sun shines and the wind blows for
free)

2018-01-20 14:54 GMT+01:00 David Owen email@hidden:

James,

My thoughts and ramblings about “allow me to get ALL the web content I
have in my existing sites" for Freeway sites…

I think perhaps we need need to think about what tool/s you need for
design, and what tools you need for content. I see your site is packed
with lots or designed content all produced within Freeway. Our Printline
(Freeway) site is similar, grown over many years. But then it’s painted
itself into a corner by being a huge task to make responsive, so big that,
it hasn’t been done. I’d need to start again. When a site grows like this,
I bet, like me you’ve had that fearful thought, that small change you just
made? will Freeway stop publishing? Will be all over?

Let’s disregard the learn code issue for the moment and live in an ideal
world. Bear with me…

There’s no doubt Freeway is great at building “responsive” pages to
whatever design you can think of (it’s still part of my tool set). Look all
the great examples in the forum of creative responsive page, menus, page
effect, light-boxes, slideshows etc. Add in a few static Freeway pages of
static content for typically a small brochure site. All is good. Probably
Freeway’s core market.

Now, when it gets to managing lots of content, pages, images, site search,
managing text styles, lots of actions… I could go on. Freeway gets
unwieldy.

Now imagine a workflow where…

  1. You design the pages (or a set of templates) in Freeway with little or
    no content, only headers menus and footers. You get your creative juice
    imagining the look and feel of the site. And concentrate in making pages
    responsive. You work on style sheets to prepare what all your typography,
    and elements will look like.

  2. You need content. You open the CMS in a browser and start to type and
    add images, You add pages, create “list and detail” pages of products. The
    images are re-sampled and re-sized for you and are automatically
    responsive. Lists are kept in alphabetical order. New pages are added to
    menus on all pages. In the CMS there’s no styles to select or manage (maybe
    just bold and italic). Everything you add is automated because of all the
    design work in section (1.). All the content of the site is searchable in
    a site search. It all looks great on Phones and on Desktop. You concentre
    only on the content for the user.

  3. The site needs a re-brand? You work on section (1.) in Freeway,
    publish a handful of templates with it’s CSS. And the CMS with 2,000+
    product/pages is updated at the same speed with the new design.

I know, I know, I’ve skirted around a few things here before anyone
nit-picks. But the point I’m trying to make is the old ways of making
larger Freeway sites is not necessarily the best way. Separating design
from content is a well established process. And making responsive pages
does NOT have to replicate a flat leaflet/brochure site. Part of the design
process must include styling the content. Not adding design for design
sake. And accepting in will look different to users on different devices.

In the past I’ve been a reluctant coder, but I’ve always been willing to
push the boundaries when I hit any. So the sites I’ve been working with
over the last 6 years use Perch CMS where so much automation is possible,
it’s refreshing.

Perhaps sharing how I’ve been addressing the problems of making websites
with Freeway may help give you a wider view.

David Owen
http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk
http://www.ineedwebhosting.co.uk
http://www.davidowendesign.com

Creative Design | Print Production | Web Design & Strategy |
Domains & Web Hosting

On 19 Jan 2018, at 23:37, JDW email@hidden wrote:

I want a web design tool that is very easy to use, yet powerful (yes,
even allow one to extend it with code as they like). But it must allow me
to get ALL the web content I have in my existing sites


freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
Information for existing FreewayTalk / Groups.io users - Site Feedback - Softpress Talk


freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

Just to consider or compare: anyone of you, who loves the succesfull
Freeway approach of ‘design first the way as you wanted’, ever take a look
at Muse? It’s most the way of how Freeway works and there are lots of
widgets (incl search, tables, CMS etc. from third party developers.) No
database driven content however if you want to use that in your site. No
standard templates included, start from scratch, but now there are ‘blocks’
available to speed up your sitebuilding time. Just google it.

Not to get your head away from Freeway, just to pass the time you have to
wait to see Freeway X rising from the ashes.

Andries

(please, dont mention over and over again the subscription part if you’re a
professional website builder. Only the sun shines and the wind blows for
free)

2018-01-20 14:54 GMT+01:00 David Owen email@hidden:

James,

My thoughts and ramblings about “allow me to get ALL the web content I
have in my existing sites" for Freeway sites…

I think perhaps we need need to think about what tool/s you need for
design, and what tools you need for content. I see your site is packed
with lots or designed content all produced within Freeway. Our Printline
(Freeway) site is similar, grown over many years. But then it’s painted
itself into a corner by being a huge task to make responsive, so big that,
it hasn’t been done. I’d need to start again. When a site grows like this,
I bet, like me you’ve had that fearful thought, that small change you just
made? will Freeway stop publishing? Will be all over?

Let’s disregard the learn code issue for the moment and live in an ideal
world. Bear with me…

There’s no doubt Freeway is great at building “responsive” pages to
whatever design you can think of (it’s still part of my tool set). Look all
the great examples in the forum of creative responsive page, menus, page
effect, light-boxes, slideshows etc. Add in a few static Freeway pages of
static content for typically a small brochure site. All is good. Probably
Freeway’s core market.

Now, when it gets to managing lots of content, pages, images, site search,
managing text styles, lots of actions… I could go on. Freeway gets
unwieldy.

Now imagine a workflow where…

  1. You design the pages (or a set of templates) in Freeway with little or
    no content, only headers menus and footers. You get your creative juice
    imagining the look and feel of the site. And concentrate in making pages
    responsive. You work on style sheets to prepare what all your typography,
    and elements will look like.

  2. You need content. You open the CMS in a browser and start to type and
    add images, You add pages, create “list and detail” pages of products. The
    images are re-sampled and re-sized for you and are automatically
    responsive. Lists are kept in alphabetical order. New pages are added to
    menus on all pages. In the CMS there’s no styles to select or manage (maybe
    just bold and italic). Everything you add is automated because of all the
    design work in section (1.). All the content of the site is searchable in
    a site search. It all looks great on Phones and on Desktop. You concentre
    only on the content for the user.

  3. The site needs a re-brand? You work on section (1.) in Freeway,
    publish a handful of templates with it’s CSS. And the CMS with 2,000+
    product/pages is updated at the same speed with the new design.

I know, I know, I’ve skirted around a few things here before anyone
nit-picks. But the point I’m trying to make is the old ways of making
larger Freeway sites is not necessarily the best way. Separating design
from content is a well established process. And making responsive pages
does NOT have to replicate a flat leaflet/brochure site. Part of the design
process must include styling the content. Not adding design for design
sake. And accepting in will look different to users on different devices.

In the past I’ve been a reluctant coder, but I’ve always been willing to
push the boundaries when I hit any. So the sites I’ve been working with
over the last 6 years use Perch CMS where so much automation is possible,
it’s refreshing.

Perhaps sharing how I’ve been addressing the problems of making websites
with Freeway may help give you a wider view.

David Owen
http://www.printlineadvertising.co.uk
http://www.ineedwebhosting.co.uk
http://www.davidowendesign.com

Creative Design | Print Production | Web Design & Strategy |
Domains & Web Hosting

On 19 Jan 2018, at 23:37, JDW email@hidden wrote:

I want a web design tool that is very easy to use, yet powerful (yes,
even allow one to extend it with code as they like). But it must allow me
to get ALL the web content I have in my existing sites


freewaytalk mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
Information for existing FreewayTalk / Groups.io users - Site Feedback - Softpress Talk


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https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/person/options

That double-post made me do a double-take. I guess someone really wants us to evaluate MUSE! :slight_smile: But I have and am not amused. Or rather, I am amused at the concept of how much one would need to pay for MUSE in light of the fact you must keep paying for it until the end of time, thanks to Adobe’s wicked subscription model.

No thanks.

That’s precisely why I like Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer. No subscription required.

–James Wages


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Andries, I agree Muse is excellent. And since I had a client with a data base style website where they needed to have customer login pages, payments etc., and they also wanted to update sections themselves, I found an excellent add-on that actually allows you to build a site in Muse and then utilize the CMS and database features of Wordpress (without knowing anything about Wordpress). It was a perfect match for this client since their old site was Wordpress and they were used to that interface. There are add-ons for just about anything you might want to do…(including site search and responsive tables James).

The subscription objection is just so lame. We all spend money for software. Guarantee the next version of FW will not be cheap. And this way you are always using the most up-to-date version by a great software company. To turn your nose up just because of the payment method seems silly to me.

I am on a program with Adobe where I get ALL of their software…all of their programs…not just Muse, but photoshop, illustrator, indesign, Muse, Premier…and dozens of other great, powerful programs for one low monthly fee. It is an excellent deal, and with the power of these programs I have been able to move ahead with my business. It pays for itself over and over again each day.

No, I am not a paid spokesman for Adobe, but for many of us who already use their programs, it just makes sense.


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I agree Steve… 23 topnotch pieces of software always up to date for $2,-
per day… One cup of coffee costs more in Holland. In my professional
graphic world its 85% Illustrator-Photoshop-Indesign-Acrobat… so I’m
using Adobes programs almost 30 years now for optimal compatibilty with
printers. If you don’t use one of these… Buy Affinity, Corel Draw etc.

In the past I spent more then $1000,- p/yr to stay updated… that’s more
then I pay now.
I think its regrettable if the choice of a payment or subscription will let
you determine your workflow. Choose the best for your business, then think
about how to pay for it.
If its good it pays for itself.

Nevertheless: I hope that Freeway will return succesfully, but in the
meanwhile my fridge has to be filled so now and then.

Keep up the good work folks. And take a good look around, you’ll be
surprised.

Andries

@Steve: You mean Musetowordpress of MuseXpress?

2018-01-23 15:06 GMT+01:00 steve farber email@hidden:

Andries, I agree Muse is excellent. And since I had a client with a data
base style website where they needed to have customer login pages, payments
etc., and they also wanted to update sections themselves, I found an
excellent add-on that actually allows you to build a site in Muse and then
utilize the CMS and database features of Wordpress (without knowing
anything about Wordpress). It was a perfect match for this client since
their old site was Wordpress and they were used to that interface. There
are add-ons for just about anything you might want to do…(including site
search and responsive tables James).

The subscription objection is just so lame. We all spend money for
software. Guarantee the next version of FW will not be cheap. And this way
you are always using the most up-to-date version by a great software
company. To turn your nose up just because of the payment method seems
silly to me.

I am on a program with Adobe where I get ALL of their software…all of
their programs…not just Muse, but photoshop, illustrator, indesign, Muse,
Premier…and dozens of other great, powerful programs for one low monthly
fee. It is an excellent deal, and with the power of these programs I have
been able to move ahead with my business. It pays for itself over and over
again each day.

No, I am not a paid spokesman for Adobe, but for many of us who already
use their programs, it just makes sense.


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Andries, yes Museexpress CMS. It’s from Musegain.

https://www.musegain.com/musexpress/

-Steve


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