[Pro] Multiple undo in Freeway

Do you have some kind of preference perhaps that overrides minimum font sizes? That is the only way I can think of that this could happen.

Thats as maybe but my argument was that, as Dan points out, the line breaks should NOT be happening at any text size.

As it happens I have mine set to not display font sizes below 11pt - and as an ‘older’ viewer whose eyesight is not what it used to be I am not alone in this.

D


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Another major problem with this site is that a lot of the content is not indexable by Google. If you click on the About link and view the source, the text is not there. This is because it seems to be being inserted into the site using JavaScript. If you can’t see the text in the source, it will not show up in Google. Nor is it accessible.

That said, if your site’s content IS meant to be viewed on one page, it’s all perfectly doable from within Freeway, and it would be far more search engine friendly.


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Hi Dan,
I just tried reducing the text only inside FireFox by 5 clicks without a problem in the line breaks. In Safari it’s only letting me go down one size for some reason (I deselected the minimum font size preference) but there were no visible problems there either.

The site has been tested on various browsers and platforms without a problem, though needless to say every time something worked fine in the slideshow with FireFox and Safari, it had to be adjusted to work in I.E as well, but we all know I.E rarely makes life that simple. Apparently the site even looks OK on an iPhone, though I don’t have one myself to check that.

I can look at the points you raise about the paragraphs but there are breaks as shown below and the site does validate properly.

Known primarily for his beauty photography with advertising

and editorial clients in the cosmetics industry, Ashley Karyl

started his career in Milan and is now a UK based

photographer who has worked on assignments both in the

studio and in locations as far away as South Africa and

Australia.

During this time his work has been used by clients who

appreciate his graphically clean, fresh style of work and

natural enthusiasm to ensure that the final image is always

perfect for their needs.

Getting back to Freeway, if I use it as originally intended then enlarging the text becomes a problem there as well, so the only solution seems to be the box model at which point the whole concept of using Freeway to freely design by drag & drop and WYSIWYG flies out of the window. Design a site in Rapidweaver though and the text can be properly enlarged and a little knowledge of CSS can allow you to do rather a lot in terms of altering the template designs. Some of those templates are becoming very clever, though I continue to use Rapidweaver very rarely.

I originally wanted to design a gallery slideshow using Freeway like the one on my website with smooth transitions from one image to another and allowing the same kind of features, so if anybody knows of an action that can do all this without the requirement of hand coding it would be good to know.

FWIW, I am not anti-FW or I wouldn’t have paid for the last upgrade, but after 5 pro versions of the software there are many points that should have been addressed some time ago and multiple undos is a glaring omission before we even start to look at some of the clever tricks that are now possible with design programs in OS X.

Thanks

Ashley


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On 2 Dec 2009, 7:57 am, DeltaDave wrote:

Do you have some kind of preference perhaps that overrides minimum font sizes? That is the only way I can think of that this could happen.

Thats as maybe but my argument was that, as Dan points out, the line breaks should be happening at any text size.

As it happens I have mine set to not display font sizes below 11pt - and as an ‘older’ viewer whose eyesight is not what it used to be I am not alone in this.

D

I do sympathise with the eye sight problem as I have been forced to wear glasses myself much of the time over the last year. I also dislike sites and emails with particularly tiny text that makes reading difficult.

The font size chosen in this case was 10 and came down to a compromise between easy reading and visual design with the problem that larger sized text can appear very clunky to those with better eyesight who study the visual appearance of a site as much as anything else. There was a debate over the size of the text in the gallery as well for the menu items, since I originally wanted to make that a little bigger but the feedback I received all said that it ruined the look of the gallery when it became any larger.

For a site like that I have to consider who my target audience is and for the most part they are art directors etc. who are often very young these days. I shall look to see if something can be done to allow for a slightly increased text size but on a purely visual level that was the intended size.


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On 2 Dec 2009, at 04:24, Dan J wrote:

you’ll also notice how much you have to pay to get a true WYSIWYG out of RapidWeaver

Just to clear up a commonly-held misconception: RapidWeaver isn’t in any way a WYSIWYG application.

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

Buy my eBooks at:
http://www.paulbradforth.com/books/


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On 2 Dec 2009, 8:30 am, Paul wrote:

Another major problem with this site is that a lot of the content is not indexable by Google. If you click on the About link and view the source, the text is not there. This is because it seems to be being inserted into the site using JavaScript. If you can’t see the text in the source, it will not show up in Google. Nor is it accessible.

That said, if your site’s content IS meant to be viewed on one page, it’s all perfectly doable from within Freeway, and it would be far more search engine friendly.

I raised this point about Google indexing because I had the same concern. Google has yet to update and make any changes, but I was assured that the text will be visible to search engines, though I don’t know how it works.

Actually, I just used Google webmaster tools where you can fetch a page as Googlebot and all the text on the about page is properly indexed so it should be fine in theory when they update it all.


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I’ve watched this thread with interest and empathise with both sides
of the argument. I think one of the problems is that many of us are
used to using sophisticated design and dtp applications that have
loads of whistles and bells, generally work very smoothly and have
multiple undos that seem almost endless. And yes, I too would welcome
that in FW.

However, you need to consider both the purpose and memory hogging/
purchase cost overhead of these applications, which reach far beyond
the platform for which FW is intended. FW is a code generator that
apes dtp style design and allows those without coding knowledge to
plunge straight in and those with some coding knowledge to further
modify its output. For those of us who have used it since it’s early
iterations, it has come a long way and remains a stable platform for
serious web design. Bear in mind, RapidWeaver, et al, are template
based. That makes them easy for things like forms and galleries and
you can modify templates to some degree, but are still pretty
inflexible in the real world, whereas FW gives you real freedom of
design.

In a serious multi-seat set-up I expect to see all the tools in
action, including Dreamweaver and Flash, but for those of us who work
alone, on cost alone that is prohibitive - never mind the power of our
Macs. So you are right to look elsewhere if you can’t make FW do what
you want - though that doesn’t mean, in other hands, it might be
possible.We should all learn to use the tools we have within their
limitations and to the best of our ever growing ability and be ready
to outsource, occasionally, to meet a client’s need.

Constructive criticism is good and I’m sure that is what has been
intended throughout this thread. FW will never be a panacea for all
and the Softpress folk are unlikely to have the development budgets of
Adobe, Apple and MIcrosoft. Likewise while some small developers can
produce small applications of extreme sopistication, FW is aimed ad a
commercial mass market in web design that puts the designer first and
produces a quality package at a very affordable cost.

For me, I’ll live without multiple undos and some of the high end
techniques in favour of a little more sauce (or should that be
source!) for CSS and CMS. But then, I’m a Daft Old B****** who took up
web design at a time when most folk would be planning the twilight of
their working life.

As to specifics, whatever is designed, we are at the mercy of
countless variations of browser/monitor set up and there will always
be occasions when the design breaks, but if, like Ashley, you know
your target market well, you can design for it knowing what range of
set-ups are likely to be there and discount the ‘exceptions’ . With a
good nod to SEO, you will be found and seen by the right web audience.

And a final word - let’s just hope that Softpress are well tuned in to
this thread and maybe there will be some welcome additions along the
line.
Hopefully fairly soon? :wink:

Colin.

On 2 Dec 2009, at 09:37, Ashley wrote:

… but after 5 pro versions of the software there are many points
that should have been addressed some time ago and multiple undos is
a glaring omission before we even start to look at some of the
clever tricks that are now possible with design programs in OS X.

Thanks

Ashley


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Here is how the site would look in Lynx (a text only browser), and this is pretty much what Google will see. I’m not seeing any additional content, such as your contact pages etc… This should be a concern for you.
http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ashleykaryl.com%2F

If I switch off JavaScript in my browser, all the additional content pages (contact etc.) are unavailable. Infact, I get a blank page with just the white text which I have to scroll to. Note - search engine bots do not run JavaScript. If your content is not visible with JavaScript OFF in a regular browser, then it’s invisible to search engines. You are losing valuable indexable material.

Anyway, that aside, I can confirm that your site could very easily be built in Freeway. Just to prove the mechanics of it, I built this small site this morning.
http://www.worldofpaul.com/carview/

It’s a two “pager”, and it uses standard Actions, and Tim Plumb’s CSS3 Rollover Action. I say “two pager” - in fact, it just shows and hides various layered DIVs to reveal each content segment (contact and home). Similar JavaScript caveats apply to this build as to yours, but in this case, all content is contained within the HTML from the off, so it’s visible and indexable.

Lynx correctly shows the Contact page content, which means that Google will see it.
http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldofpaul.com%2Fcarview%2F


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I get the validation of the page being all green, however I don’t support the sloppy code. That’s was my point in the post above. I’m glad it works, but it’s important to note that it’s wrong in terms of coding. That may also be why the formatting is off when the text is enlarged or shrunken down.

As a correction however your code really looks like this:

Ashley Karyl is a specialist beauty photographer
currently based in the UK, though he has worked both
in the studio and on location for international clients
shooting advertising and editorial assignments plus stock
and other projects in countries including Italy, France,
Germany, South Africa, Australia and the Czech Republic.< p > (Here)

Over the years his fresh clean photography of cosmetics products
and nude photography have been used by a wide range of prestigious
clients for catalogues, brochures, billboards, shop window displays,
point of sale, web, editorial and packaging etc. < p > (Here)

All work is carried out to the highest standards in a fully colour
calibrated environment and images can be supplied that are retouched,
enhanced and ready for reproduction according the client's chosen medium.  
< p >< p > (here)

Which is no where close to the formatting you had above. (I added spaces between the extra paragraph tags and added ‘here’ to the problem areas since the board here didn’t make it look right.)

Also, Paul B, RapidWeaver has that Blocks plugin right that makes it kind of like a WYSIWYG. I know I saw one of your sites that used RW. I still don’t get how people can compare FW to RapidWeaver, it’s like comparing Mac to Windows. Sure they both are operating systems, its just one does it better than the other. Even Microsoft won’t take credit for Windows 7.


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Hi Paul,
I have already verified inside Google webmaster tools what their robots are seeing and it includes the full text on every page. Since I have yet to find an art director or client who actively looks for photography using Lynx as a browser I have to say I am relaxed about that eventuality.

Now that we are in 2009 I think the number of web users (not designers running tests) who actively decide not to enable JavaScript in their browsers are very few and far between. In fact I would say that trying to spend a day now on the web visiting a range of popular sites with JavaScript disabled would be a rather sad experience when you realise how heavily many popular sites rely on it. At that point we may as well just say Flash is irrelevant as well and drag ourselves back to 1997.

I took a look at your gallery but that doesn’t really prove Freeway could have easily designed my website. I’d like to see that with a slideshow that you can start or stop at any point and there are other subtleties in mine that I wonder how Freeway would have managed. Perhaps it can be done though and I would very much like to see some examples of a polished looking gallery slideshow done with Freeway.

Thanks

Ashley


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On 2 Dec 2009, at 11:12, Paul wrote:

It’s a two “pager”, and it uses standard Actions, and Tim Plumb’s
CSS3 Rollover Action.

As a side note, if you are at all concerned with using CSS3 styles in
a production web site then in this instance the CSS Transparency
Rollover action will server you better;
http://www.freewayactions.com/test/css-transparency-rollover/
It validates under CSS 2.1 and supports cross browser fading.

On 2 Dec 2009, at 11:11, Colin Alcock wrote:

And a final word - let’s just hope that Softpress are well tuned in
to this thread and maybe there will be some welcome additions along
the line.
Hopefully fairly soon? :wink:

As a fully paid up member of the Softpress team (Softpress » Company
) I can reveal that we listen intently to everything that goes on here
(and in other places too). In fact, you know that unmarked white van
that you noticed parked over the street this morning?.. well, I’ve
said too much already!

Everything we do at Softpress is aimed to make you (our users) more
productive. This is why we were so pleased just how many of you shared
your views with us in our recent survey (http://www.softpress.com/news/customersurveywinner/
). Armed with data like this we can continue to deliver features that
mean the most to you and make you look like rock stars to your clients
or audience.
Regards,
Tim.


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Hi Dan,
The coding I showed you came from the about page and it was simply copied and pasted from text wrangler.

The reason that text on the home page appears about 3 miles down from the gallery is that I am more interested in viewers looking at the images and then reading the about page for information. The text on that home page is more for SEO but I can certainly look at any formatting questions that might exist. Very few people will choose to scroll all the way down there when all they see is oceans of black space. For those that do, they can still read the text.

Ashley


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On 2 Dec 2009, at 11:35, Dan J wrote:

Also, Paul B, RapidWeaver has that Blocks plugin right that makes it kind of like a WYSIWYG.

Well, yes. But anyone who uses RapidWeaver would do well to avoid Blocks. It gives absolutely positioned DIVs which aren’t much use for anything except images; no ‘push down the page’ functionality there. Beginners think they’ve found the Holy Grail when they find Blocks, and I’m constantly trying to talk them out of it. It’s no way to behave :slight_smile:

I still don’t get how people can compare FW to RapidWeaver

Nor me; I certainly wouldn’t.

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

Buy my eBooks at:
http://www.paulbradforth.com/books/


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On 2 Dec 2009, 10:50 am, Ashley wrote:

Hi Paul,
I have already verified inside Google webmaster tools what their robots are seeing and it includes the full text on every page. Since I have yet to find an art director or client who actively looks for photography using Lynx as a browser I have to say I am relaxed about that eventuality.

I was using Lynx as a tool to see the site as text only. I don’t have access to your Webmaster account, so it’s the best way of testing how a site would appear to a browser that is free of images, styles, etc… This is how a search engine would see it. It is also how some users will see it.

Now that we are in 2009 I think the number of web users (not designers running tests) who actively decide not to enable JavaScript in their browsers are very few and far between. In fact I would say that trying to spend a day now on the web visiting a range of popular sites with JavaScript disabled would be a rather sad experience when you realise how heavily many popular sites rely on it. At that point we may as well just say Flash is irrelevant as well and drag ourselves back to 1997.

The RNIB may want to see you in court over that assertion. They have been taking web sites to court under various disability laws for discrimination. It is always a good idea to switch Javascript off to ensure that the site degrades gracefully. There is a small, but important segment of our society for whom Javascript, Flash etc., are bad news. This renders their web browsing experiences poor because they are using assistive devices that are not regular web browsers. What right have you to say that because they can’t use JavaScript that they can’t see your site?

Javascript has always been an option, and at one point it was so flaky and unpredictable (with Microsoft and Netscape offering different flavours and models) that it became good practice not to rely on it for anything other than icing. Even today, you cannot rely on it 100%. It’s an option that can be switched off, and you have to bear in mind that that option can be used in surprising places.

This is why Flickr offers a plain HTML uploader alongside their Flash offering. Facebook offers a plain HTML uploader for images along side their Java (NOT to be confused with JavaScript) uploader. Ditto to YouTube. They all have non Javascript versions of Javascript/Flash/Java functionality.


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Google is seeing the text on those pages, so in this case Lynx is not a good judge.

I don’t have any uploaders on my site so that’s not really an issue. All I can do with the Java is to test it on as wide a range of popular browsers as possible and so far there have been no problems.

Nobody wants to isolate people from viewing a site but I have even found numerous government run websites in the past that fail to comply with those regulations you mention. I think we are at risk of turning this into a political/legal debate though and that is probably not a good thing.


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On 2 Dec 2009, 10:50 am, Ashley wrote:

I took a look at your gallery but that doesn’t really prove Freeway could have easily designed my website. I’d like to see that with a slideshow that you can start or stop at any point and there are other subtleties in mine that I wonder how Freeway would have managed. Perhaps it can be done though and I would very much like to see some examples of a polished looking gallery slideshow done with Freeway.

I added a stoppable/resumable slide show (the timing is deliberately fast so you can see the changes happening without a long wait).

http://www.worldofpaul.com/carview/

Again, apart from Tim’s Action, this was all achieved by using “out of the box” Actions. All of this is not beyond Freeway’s capabilities.


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Why do different thumbnails go orange in Safari sometimes and stay that way even when it isn’t selected or the active image? It does this whether the slideshow is playing or not. If you drop me an email I can send you the screenshots if you like.


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My biggest wish is for Freeway to play nicely with Weavers excellent SuiteFX collection of actions (successor to the older mooTools). Use them more than a few times in any document and Freeway collapses and won’t open the file again until you delete the actions.


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On 2 Dec 2009, 12:48 pm, Ashley wrote:

Why do different thumbnails go orange in Safari sometimes and stay that way even when it isn’t selected or the active image? It does this whether the slideshow is playing or not. If you drop me an email I can send you the screenshots if you like.

I assume this is addressed to me. I am guessing that the highlight colour on your Mac is yellow or orange. This happens if you click and drag slightly. It’s not something Freeway has control over - it’s how the user handles his (or her) mouse and the way the browser reacts to that sequence of events. I see it on a lot of sites because my hand seems to move faster than I can release the mouse button.


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If its a complex important web site, I would recommend versioning (saving multiple file revisions say names file-version-01 / file-version-02 ) Just in case you need to recover or analyse how a previous version worked.

You can save these files locally on your disc.

Or a tip; you could save a single file to DropBox that does file versioning automatically for you.

David

On 1 Dec 2009, at 23:58, diarbyrag wrote:

For those of you who may be interested I am just trying out this program…Foreversave…

http://tool-forcesw.com/foreversave/

it appears that it will autosave project in any program you are working in at times specified by you, every minute, 5 minutes or whatever you require, even when you swap programs, it works a little like time machine and gives you the option to revert back to an earlier version of a project.


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