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Interesting idea Max. I like the idea of a new interface and new css/html editing.
When I refer to multiple undos I’m really referring to getting the app rewritten and correct all of the problems users are seeing and features users want, not just multiple undos.
Make it a modern real pro 64bit 2015/2016 app, not just piling on top of their old codebase, year after year.
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On 22 Aug 2015, at 12:29, Richard wrote:
Interesting idea Max. I like the idea of a new interface and new css/html editing.
When I refer to multiple undos I’m really referring to getting the app rewritten and correct all of the problems users are seeing and features users want, not just multiple undos.
Make it a modern real pro 64bit 2015/2016 app, not just piling on top of their old codebase, year after year.
Richard, you are obviously not a programmer and have no idea what ‘old code base’, ‘pro app’, really mean, or the difference between a 32 bit and a 64 bit app.
I have no idea how the internals of FW are designed, but as someone who has been programming for over 45 years in a wide range of environments I have no problem imagining a design that would make multi-level undos extremely complex if not impossible without using enormous resources; and that that design may have been the only sensible one back at FW v1 due to the limitations of the hardware. Starting from scratch would/will be very expensive, probably requiring at least a doubling of the team size - most to do the rewrite and the rest to keep the current version going with new minor versions. That could price FW out of the market. Freeway is a very complex app. Probably more complex than any other you use. A single change in your page design at one point can make changes all over.
You put a lot of weight on the 32/64 bit difference. What do you think the advantage of 64 bit would be? Would a memory address space of over 4GB be useful? It’s a customer perception thing in most cases. 64 is bigger than 32 so it must be better. In reality, if a program and its data fit in 4GB then the 32 bit version will be at least slightly faster.
If you’re experimenting with something, start from a copy. Save often. Don’t make mistakes.
David
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I’ve been on this list (and using Freeway) since 1997. I agree that your interest in multiple undo is not unique, has been long wished for, and that it would be extremely nice to have. I also agree that rewriting Freeway on a modern framework is the way to get that.
As a rule, re-creating a thing that already exists is exponentially harder than building it in the first place. This seems counter-intuitive, but I assure you it is true. I have been developing web applications (a kind of software) since the late 90s, and have some clients who have stuck with me from the early 'oughts. Many of the projects I initially developed then have been re-built one or two times over since, and each time I start off thinking “how hard could it be?”, only to realize much later that an original that is grown organically over time is insanely difficult to re-create (let alone improve) in one push.
Softpress made (was forced to make) fundamental changes in Freeway’s layout and rendering code during the transition to Mac OS X, and while these changes did not have much outwardly-visible effect on the application, they were very much akin to replacing the engine on an ocean liner while steaming through the Atlantic. Handled badly, that change alone could have foundered Freeway on a rocky shore, lost forever to us. Softpress did not handle that badly, in the end, as here we are.
Softpress is a company of (startlingly few) very smart people. They punch very much over their weight, to use the boxing metaphor. Within the FreewayTalk “bubble”, it is easy to compare them with Adobe or any of the former companies Adobe bought to become the monolith they are today. Their product is truly unequalled in the Web design universe. I would urge you to check out the competition, but I am seriously not aware of another application that does what Freeway does. Outside of that bubble, they are all but unheard-of, sadly. Given their status as a “hidden treasure” or “secret weapon”, it is not surprising that they do not have the income and resources to invest in anything besides incremental improvements in the existing code base. There is a fundamental chicken-or-egg problem going on here, as I understand it.
If Softpress were to rewrite Freeway, they would immediately hit up against the replacement problem I noted earlier. Duplicating the entire core of Freeway in one whack would be difficult for any company, even Adobe. (Recall the grand pause while Photoshop moved from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X? Definitely a difficult job, for any company, and any code base.) Photoshop itself is a good example, because even today, 13 years after Mac OS X became the default OS on all Macintoshes, Photoshop still contains legacy “Carbon” code, and is not built on the Cocoa frameworks that give most modern Mac applications their unlimited Undo and familiar gloss and sheen.
So to truly start over, and give up the existing application as a source of anything except inspiration and direction, would actually argue for starting much as they originally did – with a small application of limited scope and capabilities. Not a “Freeway Lite”, but more of a “Freeway X” (like Final Cut X) – a reimagining of what the product is and how it works. It would be as unfamiliar to you as any of Freeway’s current “competitors’” applications. It would do less, by design. It would probably not replace Freeway, as it stands today, entirely. It would be a new stable base for Softpress to build upon, but for some stalwarts, it might be a bridge too far, and would result in them abandoning the platform.
All of this is my opinion, based on many years of experience, and does not reflect any “insider” information. I like and respect the Softpress team, and I have invested way more time and energy in Freeway the product and community than any sane person (or economically-literate person) would or should. My heart is on my sleeve when I tell you that this is difficult, that it will probably happen later rather than sooner, and that you may not recognize it when it does happen.
Walter
On Aug 22, 2015, at 7:21 AM, Richard email@hidden wrote:
Here’s customers complaining about lack of undos since 2008:
Information for existing FreewayTalk / Groups.io users - Site Feedback - Softpress Talk
Information for existing FreewayTalk / Groups.io users - Site Feedback - Softpress Talk
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/thread/view/149605
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Let me leave my opinion…
-
undos? yes, please!!!
-
making stupids things? now much less than at the beginning… but still lots of them!! What I make when I want to try one stupid thing? a. DUplicate the page and try at the duplicated. And when is a great stupid thing, or something really new for me, I use to duplicate the freeway project, and number the versions. I usually end a project with 2 or 3 versions nowadays…
-
money? is necessary. What I dont understand is why you can download actiones for free… Like when the webyep licence turn into free ( I thought that pay 25$ for installing the licence for a website is completely approachable…) When something is for free its getting danger, everyday closer to disappear…
…show must go on!
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This pretty much sums it up …
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and let me clear that Im not making webs everyday, just a few per year, with the only requirement that the web has to be editable for the user. I dont want friends asking me every week to change a foto, a piece of text or a pdf… Before FW, I did it in Flash action script with another programmer person (he was the main head at programming). And when I was on my own, on the point of jump to the html, I made a reviewed over more than 50 applications, and systems… and only found Freeway + WebYep to do that. So I started… and Im still a newbe in coding… and trying to learn bit a bit.
And I can live without undos, of course… but they could made things easier.
And dont take what I said about the money to make Freeway an expensive app, please… I was talking about paying for the actions, for example… or add a couple of tens to the upgrading
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ja ja ja , Richard… so, when a CTRL+Z for Life, just for the last 2 minutes…? Sometimes, It would be great!
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I’m not a programmer but I certainly know what a pro app is. I make my living as a video editor/post production supervisor and use pro apps 40+ hours a week.
All of them have more than one level of undo, are 64 bit to address more than 4GBs of memory and all have been rewritten from the ground up sometime over the last 5 years. That includes small developers as well as large ones. It is 2015 after all.
waltd said:
“Duplicating the entire core of Freeway in one whack would be difficult for any company”
It’s not one whack. They’ve had over 7 years.
I find it hard to believe that talented people would be satisfied resting on their laurels and give up on rewriting the app from scratch. What I’m talking about a is Freeway X.
“they do not have the income and resources to invest in anything besides incremental improvements in the existing code base.”
Is SP really that small and makes such little profit?
Instead of constantly saying “we’d have to rewrite the app from scratch” they should say either, “we are working on writing the app from scratch, stay tuned” or “we will never rewrite the app from scratch and are just going to continue using this old codebase. We don’t make enough money to justify it”.
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On 21 Aug 2015, 6:35 pm, Richard wrote:
I’m still using V6 and unless I get FW7 in a bundle or a huge discount, I’ll still keep my eye out and hopes up for FW8.
Apparently you’ve been missing the last couple of emails regarding discount offers when 7.1 was released? $75 for an upgrade ain’t bad … and well worth it.
Richard
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I asked a few months ago if FW 7 was faster than FW 6 and most said not really.
I find FW 6 slow and unresponsive. For example, sometimes when I type, I have to wait literally seconds for the text to appear on the web page.
I have a loaded 5K iMac with a 1TB SSD and 32GBs of memory.
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On 22 Aug 2015, 12:47 pm, rakeljuice wrote:
ja ja ja , Richard… so, when a CTRL+Z for Life, just for the last 2 minutes…? Sometimes, It would be great!
I meant about Richard van Heukelum picture…
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On 22 Aug 2015, 11:21 am, Richard wrote:
Here’s customers complaining about lack of undos since 2008:
Information for existing FreewayTalk / Groups.io users - Site Feedback - Softpress Talk
Information for existing FreewayTalk / Groups.io users - Site Feedback - Softpress Talk
https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/thread/view/149605
And there’re more at the previous forum probably as well … I started using Freeway around 1998 I guess, and even though even then there was no multiple undo’s then, and there have been complaints about that then as well … I’ve never missed it. It’s a mindset. deal with it. Yes, Freeway has reached a point they wouldn’t rather be (see earlier posted image), but even how hard you whine about it … it is what it is. And when ‘multiple undo’s’ is your only issue, please grow up. Yes, it would be nice if it’s there, but it’s way, way down on my wishlist of FW features.
Yes, we’ve heard the ‘but the have to rewrite the app to make this or that work’ too. For far more years that you have. And yes … they could have had it be rewritten by now for years, but the sad fact is … even though Freeway is a killer app, the user base ain’t that big, and thus is the income. No funds, no extra employee who will start up Xcode and starts from scratch. I would if I could, honest … but I can’t.
For now, let’s rule out multiple undo’s and focus on important future development. In Interface, usability, consistency, far more better CSS handling and more focussed to tomorrow. They’re keeping up rather than getting ahead. But they’ve come a long way in comparison with FW5.
Discontinuing Express was the best decision ever. FW6 was a major step forward from 5.5. FW7 was another huge step forward. It will take time but they really, really work hard with very little to work with.
I’ve a wish-list of a mile long … but I won’t stop using FW for sure.
Richard
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On 22 Aug 2015, 12:54 pm, rakeljuice wrote:
On 22 Aug 2015, 12:47 pm, rakeljuice wrote:
ja ja ja , Richard… so, when a CTRL+Z for Life, just for the last 2 minutes…? Sometimes, It would be great!
I meant about Richard van Heukelum picture…
The picture illustrates the position of Softpress in Freeway’s development …
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I understood in your last comment. Before (when I wrote this) I was thinking in those cases at the begining that I started to make changes, and couldnt go back… before I get the way of trying on duplicates… because when you reach a none-end-point, most of times you have bring yourself to there… because you didnt thought enough…
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On 22 Aug 2015, 12:54 pm, Richard wrote:
I asked a few months ago if FW 7 was faster than FW 6 and most said not really.
I find FW 6 slow and unresponsive. For example, sometimes when I type, I have to wait literally seconds for the text to appear on the web page.
I have a loaded 5K iMac with a 1TB SSD and 32GBs of memory.
No fence Richard, but with a machine like that, a lousy $75 shouldn’t be any issue. You should try the free 30-day trial just to ‘feel’ the difference. Really.
- And yes, SP is small
- Yes, they do make not enough money to do such an investment in development at once (but every single sold upgrade does add to their cashflow)
- The free actions on www.actionsforge.com are mostly written and offered to you by dedicated users, not (just) softpress
I’ve got a pretty decent iMac, running copies of FW 5.6.5 / 6.1.2 / 7.1.1. The current version is pretty slick here.
Richard
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I find FW 6 slow and unresponsive. For example, sometimes when I type, I have to wait literally seconds for the text to appear on the web page.
I can only suggest that this is an issue with your particular setup as I have a much slower machine than you and have never had any performance issues with any version.
First place I would look is your installed Font base - do you have hundreds? do you use font management software?
Have you contacted support(a)softpress.com about your performance issues - I am sure that they will have some suggestions for you.
D
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Just stock fonts and no font management software. No other app I have is as slow and unresponsive as FW 6.
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On 22 Aug 2015, 1:07 pm, Richard van Heukelum wrote:
when ‘multiple undo’s’ is your only issue,
And I’d ask you to grow up. As I said previously, it is not my only issue but is representative of many needed improvements in FW.
Yes, we’ve heard the ‘but the have to rewrite the app to make this or that work’ too. For far more years that you have. And yes … they could have had it be rewritten by now for years, but the sad fact is … even though Freeway is a killer app, the user base ain’t that big, and thus is the income. No funds,
Then they should just come out and say that.
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Just stock fonts and no font management software. No other app I have is as slow and unresponsive as FW 6.
So I will answer the question again:
Have you contacted email@hidden about your performance issues - I am sure that they will have some suggestions for you.
D
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