Sometime around 16/11/09 (at 11:03 -0500) seoras said:
Live in a not so prosperous rural area as I do then things change.
Your ‘predetermined base value’ has to become a lot more flexible.
I wouldn’t argue with that. But if you work for less money than you
need to make in order to pay your bills and put food on the table
you’re making a fundamental mistake in your pricing.
k
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I wouldn’t argue with that. But if you work for less money than you need to make in order to pay your bills and put food on the table you’re making a fundamental mistake in your pricing.
Totally agree Keith, just that in certain situations you have to be flexible and that time spent on more complex design work etc. might have to be adjusted (not compromised) to match a given budget with your own fiscal requirements. One hopes that’s accepted by the client, if not and they go elsewhere then so be it.
s
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THAT is classic economics.
Not true… read your economic theory… starting with Adam Smith through the Theory of the Firm and you’ll understand how we operate, either by design or instinct. (usually)
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On 16 Nov 2009, at 16:10, Keith Martin wrote:
I wouldn’t argue with that. But if you work for less money than you need to make in order to pay your bills and put food on the table you’re making a fundamental mistake in your pricing.
Down here in Cornwall, folks usually have more than one job, sometimes two or three. Your web designer may also mend fishing nets and lobster pots on the side, and perhaps serve in the bar at the local pub in the evening, or help out behind the counter in a surf shop. This can give rise to a situation where a job can be done cheaply because you’re earning more at another job, and that can give a distorted view of things; it means someone will knock out a web site for £125 or so, simply because they can, maybe for someone he knows, from whom he’ll receive some additional payment, probably in kind, later. This makes quoting really hard.
I’ve done it myself; I did a biggish site a couple of years ago and, with my other hat on, did the photography as well, but as I was being paid quite well for the website, I did the photography for peanuts. Wrong attitude, I know, but hard to get away from … I belong to professional photography lists where I’d probably be lynched for doing that!
best wishes,
Paul Bradforth
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http://www.paulbradforth.com/books/
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Sounds like things are tough over there too on the island.
I’m retired here in the states and am pinching pennies sort of… in my retirement I still do some graphics (at $25/hr) to supplement my SS and pension. I’m doing this website in kind for the client who did some engine re-powering and weathering for me. Guestimated value of the work = $400-$500 so I think it was a fair trade.
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read your economic theory…
Aww Dad, do I HAVE to??? 
[sigh]
Wealth of Nations (not quite the justification of total ‘market
forces’ economics many believe), corporation-as-legal-person (one of
the big mistakes of the 19th C IMHO), Greenspan, etc.
Fair catch, I shouldn’t be so flippant. My basic point is that if you
work for less than you need then you GET less than you need. And then
you either learn and change or you fail. (Go bust, declare
bankruptcy, claim unemployment benefit, beg, die, etc.)
k
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Fair catch, I shouldn’t be so flippant.
I shouldn’t have ringed you… I taught that crap at Temple U in Philly back in the 60’s. I’m surprised that I remember any of it!
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I taught that crap at Temple U in Philly
I thought there was a hint of substantial knowledge between the
lines in your reply. 
Hell, being pulled up when I get sloppy is good for me. And nice to
see more folk with education backgrounds on this list!
k
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hint of substantial knowledge
You got that right! That’s about all that’s left… a hint!
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Fair catch, I shouldn’t be so flippant. My basic point is that if you work for less than you need then you GET less than you need.
Confessed, as I started my business in 1997, I took over such jobs where clients beat down my original quote.
Well, for my excuse the Internet was young and many people believed that it was only a place of “criminals”, so it was even hard enough to convince businesses going online.
Once during a business meeting, already at the stage where just money talks, I was told that “otherwise the son of our secretary takes this job over” - that’s not a joke, I share a “real-world” experience here.
Now I’m (luckily) in a position to say “No, thanks.” and leave without further discussion.
But I can understand others that stay and try to discuss or even finally agree - just for getting the project. However they then have to live with the fact that others aren’t willing to pay more.
Also they should consider that it’s impossible to get a follow-up project with better conditions at the same company. Sure, the question “Why are you so expensive now ?” is hard to answer if you sold yourself the first time.
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True… however, I’ve seen that in today’s world, and with so many companies leaving the purchasing function up to cherry pickers, bottom line buying is more prevalent than ever. Customer/vendor loyalty? Say what? I’ve cut way back in my client list, down to only 2-3. Haveing 20 or so was just too much like my old job (too much like work, that is), and retirement was no longer fun. I just sit back and watch, play games with customers (price-wise) and enjoy the results. I do all the graphics for one local bucket shop printer who’s trying to compete with web prices and he’s winning… as long as he’s willing to charge whatever the customer is willing to pay. This isn’t anything new, as many of his customers are brokers who are really printing prostitutes by nature, and dictating prices has always been their MO. One and 2-color work is still profitable, but color work – fukedaboutit. When I can get B-cards, 4/4, 15pt c/2/s, UV coated, 500 for $12.50, well, that says it all.
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I meant 14pt c/2/s and 1,000
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