hi all
I just read this article written by Geir Wavic. Very interesting, especially the part where he explains the semantic value of HTML tags and the right use of CSS.
My question. How can I implement this in my sites build with Freeway? And how does this relate to the future Freeway is moving to?
article here:
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One of the problems with his article is that he talks about maintaining tables. That is tricky to do by hand, but crazy easy to do with Freeway, as you know.
In fact, a lot of his article is about how hard it is to code with each method. Ideally, FW abstracts us from all that.
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Thanks Yoe, for answering. Of course I’m very thankful for the way FW solves all the coding (otherwise I was not using it 
but what puzzles me sometimes is that code generated by FW -sometimes- differs so much from what in this (and related) article(s) advise. And that I end up with CSS code spread all around my files. I mean, not everything is put in the stylesheet. I wonder what I can do to to keep my pages as slim as possible, and I am trying to understand what semantic coding means. Lately I started building sites with FW and EE (your Action) and I’ve came across several imperfections of FW. I was forced to code by hand a lot as well. Without the help of this forum I would never ever have been able to move forwards. That’s why I asked what about the future of FW, when reading this article. But maybe I do not know enough about this matter, and is my question a bit silly…?
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Some of what you’re seeing, I assume, is a proliferation of inline
CSS. While this is a perfectly valid way to add CSS, depending on who
you talk to and who you work for and you’re own inclinations, it makes
for sloppy, bloated code and strays from the ideal separation of
structure and style which is probably not a concern for most FW users.
The point can be argued forever but if it bothers you try using the
Remove DIV Style action. It’ll allow you to move all the FW generated
inline styles into the stylesheet. A tedious process but very useful.
Personally, I’m with you on this, it drives me nuts.
Todd
On Apr 9, 2009, at 10:26 AM, atelier wrote:
I mean, not everything is put in the stylesheet. I wonder what I can
do to to keep my pages as slim as possible, and I am trying to
understand what semantic coding means.
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Just a guess - but have you tried using an external stylesheet in Freeway?
It is clear - at least too me - that Softpress are aiming to deliver a CSS
standards compatible web authoring solution in Freeway Pro.
But I sense it has been pressured to do this by the larger environment of
the web where CSS had to come up in response to the awful mess that tabled
sites were getting into - far beyond what a Freeway table layout would ever
create - in my opinion.
A lot of the issues in that article were not relevant to Freeway’s table
layout mode - which remains a very usable magic tool that works very well
for very little effort in many cases.
Freeway doesn’t have tables within tables within tables - and its code is
always freshly generated and doesn’t (usually) require maintaining or
editing at code level unless exported out of Freeway development or for very
special exceptions. (like working with EE).
I share with you a willingness to grasp the principles of CSS - but I am
also limited in motivation amidst lots else and I pick up a bit more as it
concretizes. But it does have a ‘code’ based approach (if not an actual
requirement to be able to code) and that doesn’t attract me - nor does a
sense of more ways to break in various browsers until one is (forced to
become) an expert!
But Softpress might be the company to bring back a greater degree of
designer approach even within the CSS model - at least I hope so!
I confess that on a Mac I often decry Apps that protect the user from
complexity when it runs as a bully. And prefer such Apps to offer stepping
stones with the way it actually works.
Having used Freeway instead of learning to code I am too used to the
Freeway-way and seem to be a bit out of reach of the many abstractions that
to coders are concrete.
all the best
Brian
atelier said recently:
Thanks Yoe, for answering. Of course I’m very thankful for the way FW solves
all the coding (otherwise I was not using it
is that code generated by FW -sometimes- differs so much from what in this
(and related) article(s) advise. And that I end up with CSS code spread all
around my files. I mean, not everything is put in the stylesheet. I wonder
what I can do to to keep my pages as slim as possible, and I am trying to
understand what semantic coding means. Lately I started building sites with FW
and EE (your Action) and I’ve came across several imperfections of FW. I was
forced to code by hand a lot as well. Without the help of this forum I would
never ever have been able to move forwards. That’s why I asked what about the
future of FW, when reading this article. But maybe I do not know enough about
this matter, and is my question a bit silly…?
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On 9 Apr 2009, 3:46 pm, Todd wrote:
… try using the
Remove DIV Style action. It’ll allow you to move all the FW generated
inline styles into the stylesheet. A tedious process…
Yes, I’ve used that one sometimes. Made me think, how about adding to the Style-editor (drawn from the menu) a section only for DIV’s and in the Inspector the possibility to attach a certain DIV style to a DIV with the same ID (living on another page of course)
@ Bin-Ra I always use external stylesheets, but nevertheless I end up with page-specific styles that are often the same on all of my pages. So my thought, why does FW not collect them and put them in the external?
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There’s a very simple reason for this. Freeway’s IDs are not site-
unique, only page-unique. Unless there was a way to infer that this
#item3 was the exact same thing as that #item3 (on another page),
there would be a very real potential for ugliness.
In my (lengthy) experience, Softpress listens – very keenly – to the
needs of its users, and responds to them. I would not be surprised if
we saw element style code moving out to the stylesheet wherever
possible in a future version of Freeway. It’s a point that’s been
raised over and over, and as with any squeaky wheel, some lubricant
will no doubt be forthcoming.
Walter
On Apr 9, 2009, at 12:47 PM, atelier wrote:
@ Bin-Ra I always use external stylesheets, but nevertheless I end
up with page-specific styles that are often the same on all of my
pages. So my thought, why does FW not collect them and put them in
the external?
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Unless there was a way to infer that this #item3 was the exact same thing as that #item3 (on another page),
there would be a very real potential for ugliness.
The answer that comes to mind (my mind anyway) would be to require user to give every division a unique name at the time it is created, and Freeway would keep a list of every division on every page to make sure there was no duplicate.
Sometimes the obvious sounds too simplistic, and in this case i’m sure it is.
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On 9 Apr 2009, 5:06 pm, waltd wrote:
… I would not be surprised if
we saw element style code moving out to the stylesheet wherever
possible in a future version of Freeway…
I’m looking forward to that…
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Chuck, I’m sure that’s how the problem would need to be solved, I was just pointing out where the hold-up is now. I believe a change is gonna come, as the man sang most famously.
Walter
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Extend Freeway the way you want with FreewayActions.com
http://www.freewayactions.com
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Sometime around 9/4/09 (at 16:56 -0400) chuckamuck said:
require user to give every division a unique name at the time it is created
That would be one hell of a lot of work dropped on the user’s head!
k
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Also, just a heads up. The Remove DIV Style action will not work with the ExpressionEngine action bundle. They don’t play well together because of the options in the EE Resources folder/page action “Absolute path to resources.” If you uncheck this option then it works, leave it checked and it won’t.
I’d like to see the separation between structure and style external as well. Since an action can do it, you’d think it’d be easier to program it, but what do I know.
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That would be one hell of a lot of work dropped on the user’s head!
Not necessarily. It could be as simple as putting a div name in one time, and every subsequent new div with the same name could be incremented by 1. The name could be chosen from a pop option that displays previous names used in a dialog.
Don’t you think fostering good naming practices in the long run is worth a little pain at first while getting used to it? After all, Freeway’s claim to fame is output of clean code, which should also include CSS output.
Perhaps this is not the place for this discussion.
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On 10 Apr 2009, 6:47 pm, Dan J wrote:
Also, just a heads up. The Remove DIV Style action will not work with the ExpressionEngine action bundle…
Ah, now I see why (things did not work the way I expected) Thank you.
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What doesn’t work when you use the EE Actions and Remove DIV Style? Does Remove DIV Style simply not do its thing, or is there some other issue?
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Sometime around 10/4/09 (at 17:15 -0400) chuckamuck said:
Don’t you think fostering good naming practices in the long run is
worth a little pain at first while getting used to it? After all,
Freeway’s claim to fame is output of clean code, which should also
include CSS output.
I agree with your goal, but I can’t agree that end-user pain is worth
it. Only committed users would put up with that; cause pain to a new
user and the odds are that you will lose that user. (And Freeway’s
biggest claim to fame is pain- and code-free web designing.
k (who seems to be Oscar the Grouch these days - sorry everyone!)
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(And Freeway’s biggest claim to fame is pain- and code-free web designing.
That is not my experience with it, but then my goals have been about using the product for commercial uses from the start. At least that was the intention.
I think we are really talking about two different products. Your product satisfies a beginners desire to create a web page with little effort. My product makes creating commercial grade web sites with little effort. IMHO, at the moment, they do not coexist, but I assert that they most certainly can. Assuming that Softpress and Freeway survive in these turbulent times going forward, I hope they eventually will.
(who seems to be Oscar the Grouch these days - sorry everyone!)
The way things are in the world, it is understandable.
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On 11 Apr 2009, 1:25 pm, Joe Muscara wrote:
What doesn’t work when you use the EE Actions and Remove DIV Style? Does Remove DIV Style simply not do its thing, or is there some other issue?
Yeah, I’m afraid something else. It was some time ago I tested the Remove DIV Style, so I forgot. Tested again yesterday, and know now that this action does not move the styles to the external stylesheet at all, something I was -and still am- after. I read some of the other posts here (also: http://www.freewaytalk.net/thread/view/36221#m_36224 ) so I must cut my own way through this deep and dark forest…
Thanks anyway.
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