Somebody commented to me today on how ugly the Freeway Pro code is, at least at the beginning, and I would have to agree.
Why is that?
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Even with External Stylesheets enabled, there is still some boilerplate CSS and certainly plenty of JavaScript that Freeway adds to the head of the page. There’s not a lot you can do about it without a lot of hassle and extra Actions. It’s something you either live with or look elsewhere. Freeway’s HTML code is some of the most concise I have seen, although being able to fully externalize the layout CSS would make it even more so.
Walter
On May 29, 2012, at 4:52 PM, RavenManiac wrote:
Somebody commented to me today on how ugly the Freeway Pro code is, at least at the beginning, and I would have to agree.
Why is that?
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I think of it as the difference between a poem and a shopping list… both are just words – but how they are chosen and arranged make all the difference between lunch and art.
I have often wished myself that Freeway Pro could write more beautiful and meaningful code… It writes accurate code, which is enough. Still, were I a member of the development team, I would push for certain design aesthetics… like no style code anywhere a user didn’t intend. All CSS attributes would close. Every style and object would be comment-able. There would be more robust, structurally semantic data tables, broader inclusion of html elements, and of course, HTML5 structures.
And that would be just the beginning 
Sent from my iPad
On May 29, 2012, at 5:02 PM, Walter Lee Davis email@hidden wrote:
Even with External Stylesheets enabled, there is still some boilerplate CSS and certainly plenty of JavaScript that Freeway adds to the head of the page. There’s not a lot you can do about it without a lot of hassle and extra Actions. It’s something you either live with or look elsewhere. Freeway’s HTML code is some of the most concise I have seen, although being able to fully externalize the layout CSS would make it even more so.
Walter
On May 29, 2012, at 4:52 PM, RavenManiac wrote:
Somebody commented to me today on how ugly the Freeway Pro code is, at least at the beginning, and I would have to agree.
Why is that?
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We are often talking about things like this these days. It is nothing new and it is a wish since somewhere v4.5 if there isn’t a way to simplify the code issue. But we often forget what user-structure we have. The most (and that’s pretty cool) do not mind about this cause they just build projects (personal, hobby, or whatever).
This is mostly an issue if you try to combine Freeway’s work with other web-developers or if you show your page somebody that started to use Coda these days.
But in one thing there aren’t two opinions:
A layered based layout (which I did the last somewhere in 2009), the item hierarchy is sometimes - ähmm let’s call it - confusing. Cause it can happen, that the code is starting with item footer and ends with header (depending on what is on top and what is in back.
Freeway is dedicated to “build your project and don’t care about the rest”. This is excellent, brilliant and had been the entrance ticket in a world I didn’t understood and still not do. The rest is up to each user.
Tim’s externalis(z)er action and Max’s "advanced inline style (re)mover are pretty cool tools that could help here. The rest is unfortunately part of a css-editor to comment, separate, clean your style-sheets.
The second point is to switch to inflow items which is a massive learning-curve as well.
Instead of massive changes in version 6 I’d prefer to see a FW Expert (or dynamo) 1.0 that has all the necessary features inbuilt. I still dream of an inbuilt editor like CSSEdit (which is now Espresso) and a massively reduced inspektor.
Cheers
Thomas
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Hey Thomas,
Actually, I can recall passionate list discussions about this kind of stuff
going back 5 or 6 years. The point of friction, I believe, when it comes to
the generated code are user expectations of “Pro” versus not, and what the
marketplace expects from “Pro” versus not.
Freeway Pro is good, as you and many point out, for initiating people
into building websites… but it has had trouble keeping up with their growth
after that initiation. Actions have given the product an amazing
flexibility and an expanded development pool… but I think has also created
a development model that inhibits strong leadership of the product.
Freeway Pro’s mission should no longer be as a tool for protecting users
from how web pages are made, but as a tool for managing their growth as web
developers. So instead of growing out of Freeway Pro, users can grow *into
- it.
If they were to come out with an “expert” product, I would say that further
dividing the marketplace is a bad idea. Express already exists for
low-involvement consumers, and I’m assuming can be tooled up with current
Pro features to satisfy that market. Far better I think to shift philosophy
and develop Pro to lead and sustain the inevitable web development journey
of its users.
Web design is all about being clever. As I envision it, Freeway Pro could
really shine as a clever tool. It could really help people become pros.
–
Ernie Simpson
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 3:46 AM, Thomas Kimmich email@hidden wrote:
We are often talking about things like this these days. It is nothing new
and it is a wish since somewhere v4.5 if there isn’t a way to simplify the
code issue. But we often forget what user-structure we have. The most (and
that’s pretty cool) do not mind about this cause they just build projects
(personal, hobby, or whatever).This is mostly an issue if you try to combine Freeway’s work with other
web-developers or if you show your page somebody that started to use Coda
these days.But in one thing there aren’t two opinions:
A layered based layout (which I did the last somewhere in 2009), the item
hierarchy is sometimes - ähmm let’s call it - confusing. Cause it can
happen, that the code is starting with item footer and ends with header
(depending on what is on top and what is in back.Freeway is dedicated to “build your project and don’t care about the
rest”. This is excellent, brilliant and had been the entrance ticket in a
world I didn’t understood and still not do. The rest is up to each user.Tim’s externalis(z)er action and Max’s "advanced inline style (re)mover
are pretty cool tools that could help here. The rest is unfortunately part
of a css-editor to comment, separate, clean your style-sheets.The second point is to switch to inflow items which is a massive
learning-curve as well.Instead of massive changes in version 6 I’d prefer to see a FW Expert (or
dynamo) 1.0 that has all the necessary features inbuilt. I still dream of
an inbuilt editor like CSSEdit (which is now Espresso) and a massively
reduced inspektor.Cheers
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Freeway Pro’s mission should no longer be as a tool for protecting users from how web pages are made, but as a tool for managing their growth as web developers. So instead of growing out of Freeway Pro, users can grow into it.
Well said.
Todd
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As Walter and others have mentioned freeway output can’t be streamlined or cleaned completely without other actions but… it can be done.
I have exactly the same sort of requests from others in the studio that require all of the above… so with careful construction and using actions I can make (virtually) clean html:
- Reset style sheet action… to reset everything
- Advanced inline style mover… to assign classes delete id’s move the inline styles to the head and add extra classes if required
- Add selector to add classes to specific tags
- Classify to convert id to classes
- Externalise to move all the styles out of the head and into a style sheet
and a few other actions which I cant remember of the top of my head
Though It would be great if the functionality that the above actions could be built in to the application rather than resorting to all the above actions.
all the best Max
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Most people buy a Ferrari because of how they think they will look in it (self-image etc.), how they think others will view them – simply put, its about image.
A small number will buy because of engine specification and fewer still through a desire to tinker under the hood.
Frankly, I barely understand a word of what you talk about above but at a guess I’d say you’re talking ‘under the hood’!
I’m a visual guy, I design for people who are interested in how they appear in the world of marketing, commercials and print.
I live in a world dominated by the likes of Microsoft, who’s products are ubiquitous amongst my clients (and with which I have to interact regularly), and Adobe which has become the new Microsoft, amongst the creative community.
My point is this: Freeway is a small player offering a pretty specialized product amongst behemoths. The more successful it becomes in it’s niche, the more likely it is to attract attention from these gargantuan competitors. Therefore, if it wishes to survive, future development must be geared toward markets that can best ensure financial success.
Without wishing to sound conceited – its probably the likes of myself that represents the best target market.
All I want is a product that interprets my vision for how a page/site works and functions, with the least amount of fuss or time-wasting and most certainly without the necessity to delve into code.
I want this product to stay a step ahead of the competitors it terms of functionality and ease of use – so I view the development of Adobe’s Muse with some concern.
I have to use the product that best suits the way I work and affords me the best chance of success both fiscally and in terms of client satisfaction.
I want to use Freeway – I do not want to be utterly dependent on Adobe (who killed my beloved Freehand) and really the only way to be sure of that is for Softpress to be financially successful – by whatever strategy.
So evolve it must and quickly – and with less and less necessity to ‘tinker beneath the hood’!
Cheers, Nik
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On 31/05/2012, at 8:38 AM, Nik Andrew wrote:
Frankly, I barely understand a word of what you talk about above but at a guess I’d say you’re talking ‘under the hood’!
I’m a visual guy, I design for people who are interested in how they appear in the world of marketing, commercials and print.
My point is this: Freeway is a small player offering a pretty specialized product amongst behemoths. The more successful it becomes in it’s niche, the more likely it is to attract attention from these gargantuan competitors. Therefore, if it wishes to survive, future development must be geared toward markets that can best ensure financial success.
Excellent post and I think it nicely sums up the Softpress position in the market. In a similar vein to you, I come from a visual background and have little interest in tinkering with CSS. By necessity (and from having some programming experience) I do some work with MySQL/PHP but only when I have to.
I am greatly appreciative of a product like Freeway Pro where one can simply design what they want and be reasonably confident what will display will be what they designed. If it takes an extra couple of seconds to appear because of verbose code, I can live with that.
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+1 what Ernie said.
Marcel
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