Responsive Freeway failure

Freeway
1

So I decided to dabble into making our site responsive by help of the
tools that Freeway Pro offers for that. But it seems to fail in
practise. Here is what I did - for the front page of the site, only:

  1. The templaged offered (I belive) the media types ‘default’, ‘tablet’,
    ‘tablet in landscape’ and ‘iphone’.
  2. For each media type, I scaled the page and the objects of the page
    and basically made it all fit.
  3. I also previewed each media type, inside Freeway.

But here is where it started to fail: I started with the default, and
worked myself down to the smallest media type - the iphone. But when I
had done that, and wante to preview the default media type, the default
media type would fail - with the different “news objects” of the page
being layed out more or less as if was for the iPhone: The basic scaling
of the page would be as expexted, but the placement of the objects were
below each others instead of side-by-side.

I could “fix” it by doing a fake edit in default mode - and the preview
the page. But then it would be the non-default media types that would
start to fail, when I previewed those media types. So it is an
either-or-situation: Either default mode works fine - or the
non-default-modes works fine (at least some of them …)

In addition to the built-in previewing in Freeway, I used the
FirefoxDeveloperEdition for previewing - it has a responsive mode. It
was the same errors any place.

It is (sigh) the first time I have tried use Freeway to make anything
responsive. So it is (shall I say hopefully?) something I have
overlooked … It probably was wrong to do the adapation o a
per-page-basis - doing it on a per-template-basis would perhaps have
worked better? (But doing that would be a much greater task to
accomplish.)

Is this is a well known issue? Is it somethign wih the template I use
(on of the templates from Softpress’ market place).

Leif Halvard Silli

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2

Is this is a well known issue? Is it somethign wih the template I use (on of the templates from Softpress’ market place).

I am afraid that you will need to give us a lot more information than you have provided here.

An example page would tell us so much more.

The latest FW Templates are Responsive and built using an inline construction method and if you have tried to mix and match with a standard layout then you will have problems.

So provide a link and on which template you have based your construction and then I am sure we can help you find out where you went wrong.

David

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3

On 17 Nov 2015, at 2:23, DeltaDave wrote:

Is this is a well known issue? Is it somethign wih the template I use
(on of the templates from Softpress’ market place).

I am afraid that you will need to give us a lot more information than
you have provided here.

An example page would tell us so much more.

The latest FW Templates are Responsive and built using an inline
construction method and if you have tried to mix and match with a
standard layout then you will have problems.

What do you mean by «standard layout»? (Btw: I am not certain about
the name of FW Template i used.)

So provide a link and on which template you have based your
construction and then I am sure we can help you find out where you
went wrong.

You may look at http://www.russisk.no/index.html

Leif Halvard Silli

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4

Dare I say, the template works perfectly correct to the settings you’ve given each element.

Widths

Most of your elements are too wide to fit smaller screen sizes. Review each element width/margin/padding that is too wide making sure you preview and re-check as you work through the page.

Heights

For example on smaller screens there’s a large gap under div#item12 (better if you name these btw). It’s currently set to margin-bottom:156px. Reduce that.

You’ll need to get you head around how to create more flexible width elements.

—

David Owen { Freeway Friendly Web hosting and Domains }

http://www.ineedwebhosting.co.uk | http://www.PrintlineAdvertising.co.uk

On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:33, Leif Halvard Silli email@hidden wrote:

You may look at http://www.russisk.no/index.html

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5

Thanks. But it seems to me that Freeway is to be blamed: In Freeway I
changed the widths and heights, per media type - the widths and heights
differ, in Freeway, per media type. So from my POV, it is an error in FW
which prevents things from having media-perfect widths and heights.
Thus, except in the default media type, the dimensions are not as I have
set them.

Of course, using flexy dimensions should help, but does Fw require me to
use flexy dimensions? To me, that sounds like a (well, reasonable)
workaround for my problems. Not?

If so, then I guess I should bother Softpress with a bug report.

Leif

On 17 Nov 2015, at 12:55, David Owen wrote:

Dare I say, the template works perfectly correct to the settings
you’ve given each element.

Widths

Most of your elements are too wide to fit smaller screen sizes. Review
each element width/margin/padding that is too wide making sure you
preview and re-check as you work through the page.

Heights

For example on smaller screens there’s a large gap under div#item12
(better if you name these btw). It’s currently set to
margin-bottom:156px. Reduce that.

You’ll need to get you head around how to create more flexible width
elements.

—

David Owen { Freeway Friendly Web hosting and Domains }

http://www.ineedwebhosting.co.uk |
http://www.PrintlineAdvertising.co.uk

On 17 Nov 2015, at 10:33, Leif Halvard Silli email@hidden
wrote:

You may look at http://www.russisk.no/index.html

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6

If so, then I guess I should bother Softpress with a bug report.

I am afraid that it is not a bug that is causing you problems.

If you have sized an element at 313px wide for a page of 320px but have a 32px left margin on it then simple maths tells me it isn’t going to fit.

I think that because you are using graphic rounded corner boxes instead of doing them in CSS and html you are also losing flexibility.

The method of construction you are using can work at different sizes but start with plain containers first until you get the construction right and then add rounded corners (in CSS) for embellishment.

D

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7

On 18 Nov 2015, 12:19 am, Leif H. S. wrote:

Thanks. But it seems to me that Freeway is to be blamed:

So you’re the first Freeway user making responsive pages with Freeway at all since introducing the responsive features in Freeway one and a half years ago? Tough statements are OK, unjustified are bringing me in every post, fighting against ignorance. This is a cheek at all, blaming a hard fighting manufacturer and her audience.

But basically you’re blaming yourself:

Of course, using flexy dimensions should help,

No, it shouldn’t! It WILL!!!

No matter of choice, simply a premise.

Bore the towers with unqualified bug-reports, it’s your damn right, but stop blaming this audience unless you have a lil bit more of background.

Cheers

Thomas

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8

On 18 Nov 2015, at 9:23, Thomas Kimmich wrote:

On 18 Nov 2015, 12:19 am, Leif H. S. wrote:

Thanks. But it seems to me that Freeway is to be blamed:

So you’re the first Freeway user making responsive pages with Freeway
at all since introducing the responsive features in Freeway one and a
half years ago? Tough statements are OK, unjustified are bringing me
in every post, fighting against ignorance. This is a cheek at all,
blaming a hard fighting manufacturer and her audience.

LOL

But basically you’re blaming yourself:

Of course, using flexy dimensions should help,

No, it shouldn’t! It WILL!!!

No matter of choice, simply a premise.

Bore the towers with unqualified bug-reports, it’s your damn right,
but stop blaming this audience unless you have a lil bit more of
background.

The bug, here, is that Freeway deceives the user: It allows to create
five different versions of the same page - each of which looks perfect
in Freeway’s preview (not to mention its «editing mode» - where it
looks super perfect). But when one is finished with the five versions
and tries to test them out, side by side so to speak, they all (but one,
namely version one last worked on) fail. And without any error messages
from Freeway which gives the user hints about that and how it was
used wrong.

Have a nice day!

leif

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9

No the bug here is, that a user expects “dynamic” but thinks “static”. Welcome in 2015. So in this case, the bug sits in front of the screen and I haven’t found the correct place to complaint this.

Have a look at this (and the following) episode:

http://www.kimmich-digitalmedia.com/videos/017_grid-express-part-1

Freeway has the most enhanced tool doing responsive design these days - even for drop and drag amateurs. But it has unfortunately the most ignorant and inflexible audience as well. This static destroys dynamics as well.

Cheers

Thomas

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10

On 18 Nov 2015, at 2:27, DeltaDave wrote:

If so, then I guess I should bother Softpress with a bug report.

I am afraid that it is not a bug that is causing you problems.

If you have sized an element at 313px wide for a page of 320px but
have a 32px left margin on it then simple maths tells me it isn’t
going to fit.

  • You may think it is a dumb of me, the author, to ask, but where does
    that 32px left margin come from?

However, I ask because: In ‘phone 320px’ media mode there is (in the
editing interface) no 32px margin. And if I, while working in ‘phone
320px’ media mode, preview the page in Freeway (or in a browser) then
there is no 32px left margin! (That margin is only supposed to be
there in the default mode.)

(Keep what I said above in mind when you read the following:) After
having worked in ‘phone 320px’ mode, I switch back to e.g. default mode

  • and add some tweeaks there - it is enought to add space or a comma in
    the text. Then I preview the page - in default mode, which works
    ince. And then I preview the page in ‘phone 320px’ mode (without
    tweaking the page first). Guess what: Suddenly there is a 32px margin
    there.
  • Why? The only thing I can say is: Not because I added it!

I also encourage you to look at my page a tablet (or in tablet mode). Do
you think that I designed that page like that - in Freeway? Do you think
that when I worked with that page - in tablet mode - in Freeway, that it
looked like that? Have a little faith in me, please! :smiley:

The bug here is that, when working in a particular media mode, then
Freeway somehow lets (some of) the style settings of that mode affect
the other modes. For instance, above I did not mention that when I were
editing in ‘phone 320px’ mode, and tried to preview the page in
‘default mode’ (without doing any editing in ‘default mode’ before doing
the previewing), then the 32px margin would dissappear and the items on
the page would be laid out vertically (beneath each others) instead of
the side-by-side mode it now has.

I think that because you are using graphic rounded corner boxes
instead of doing them in CSS and html you are also losing flexibility.

Good point. Will tacle it when I get the basic things to work … (See
above.)

The method of construction you are using can work at different sizes
but start with plain containers first until you get the construction
right and then add rounded corners (in CSS) for embellishment.

Also a good advice.

leif halvard silli

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11

On 18 Nov 2015, at 11:36, Thomas Kimmich wrote:

No the bug here is, that a user expects “dynamic” but thinks “static”.

Well, they say the human is “jump to comclusions machine”. Hence, I
don’t blame you for speaking as you do … :wink:

Welcome in 2015.

See my above comment.

So in this case, the bug sits in front of the screen and I haven’t
found the correct place to complaint this.

Have a look at this (and the following) episode:

http://www.kimmich-digitalmedia.com/videos/017_grid-express-part-1

Freeway has the most enhanced tool doing responsive design these days

  • even for drop and drag amateurs. But it has unfortunately the most
    ignorant and inflexible audience as well. This static destroys
    dynamics as well.

I think it is great that you are a champion on behalf of Freeway.
However, I am not certain that you make it a service with this attitude
of yours. :slight_smile: (And I mean your comment here - not the video.)

When you say that «Freeway has the most enhanced tool doing responsive
design these days - even for drop and drag amateurs», then you actually
describe a feature. And guess what: Features might contain bugs.

leif halvard silli

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12

Doing a responsive design in FW takes a great deal of learning to get one’s head around (especially coming from WYSIWYG layouts) - and the “responsive” learning curve in FW is not simple. It takes a bit of patience and determination, trial and error, and doing things in small steps.

While FW might not be “bug” free entirely - the vast majority of the program is rock solid - especially for doing elementary designs like the sample you’ve provided above. This is not so much defending FW as it is pointing out that an inexperienced user who can’t get simple things working right, is probably not being plagued by any “bugs” in the program. It’s much more likely a learning curve thing.

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13

On 18 Nov 2015, at 12:38, Karen E wrote:

Doing a responsive design in FW takes a great deal of learning to get
one’s head around (especially coming from WYSIWYG layouts) - and the
“responsive” learning curve in FW is not simple. It takes a bit of
patience and determination, trial and error, and doing things in small
steps.

While FW might not be “bug” free entirely - the vast majority of the
program is rock solid - especially for doing elementary designs like
the sample you’ve provided above. This is not so much defending FW as
it is pointing out that an inexperienced user who can’t get simple
things working right, is probably not being plagued by any “bugs” in
the program. It’s much more likely a learning curve thing.

Karen: I agree. However, a question: Have you tried do replicate the
issue I described?

leif halvard silli

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14

I’m under the impression (or at least I have no other explanation left) that you have the relative page layout action applied?

Well - if so, remove it. It’s since introducing FW 7 not working anymore (so nothing new).

Cheers

Thomas

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15

On 18 Nov 2015, at 13:50, Thomas Kimmich wrote:

I’m under the impression (or at least I have no other explanation
left) that you have the relative page layout action applied?

Well - if so, remove it. It’s since introducing FW 7 not working
anymore (so nothing new).

Thank you, Thomas, that was the problem - the site did indeed use the
Relative Page Layout action. I do not remember why I used that that
action - quite possibly the action was preinstalled with the template.
As soon as I remove it, everything worked as it should. I could not have
learned this without taking to the east - so once again, thank you.

But it seems like the correct bug to file would be to ask that Softpress
declares that action as defunct or something (in contrast to e.g. this
page, which describes it as presinstalled with the Charcoal template:
https://www.softpress.com/kb/questions/319/Relative+Page+Layout+(Pro+only)
), of take even stronger steps to make users remove that action: if it
does not work anymore, why not make Freeway check plug-ins for
compatibility? It is quite common that applications do such checks.

leif halvard silli

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16

The problem on this is, that the “Charcoal” template, created entirely new with Version 7 does not have this action applied by default. So coming from an older version of Freeway6, I think the action has got still the right being there.

The formula to me is pretty simple:

Keep older docs with the Version number it’s been created.

Responsive Design is a big chance. It is a chance to review ones’ strategy and design. The way building websites these days is so different - it changed all (nearby). And I often described it here on board, sooo often, that I’m really convinced of being right:

WebDesign today:

  1. Requires a rock solid story, written - literally. Start by asking for “WHO” and write down the way the other W-questions (whom, what, where, why). This is more than a third of a web-project

  2. Design. Do not abuse FW for doing so. It’s simply not the correct tool for these days. I recently purchased SKETCH and it’s sooooo coooool. And for each single “o” I’ll create a screencast, for sure. This ensures the next third.

  3. The final third? This is consequently setting up the FW-doc. There are no questions left, cause everything already exists. Whether building it form scratch (preferably) or using framework like bootstrap or using templates (that need to match the story of step1) doesn’t matter. Make yourself clear the different ways of positioning and its single use and sense.

This is a workflow of modern web design, tested by myself - bulletproof.

The times of placing and replacing (drop and drag) are gone and they’ll never come back. For the one it is a pain, for the other it’s a win by increase of professionalism. It’s up to you to which of those chapters you’d like belonging to. And it has NOTHING to do with Freeway!!!

Perhaps the wrong thread to post this, who cares?

Cheers

Thomas

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17

On 19 Nov 2015, at 9:30, Thomas Kimmich wrote:
…

WebDesign today:

  1. Requires a rock solid story, written - literally. Start by asking
    for “WHO” and write down the way the other W-questions (whom, what,
    where, why). This is more than a third of a web-project

  2. Design. Do not abuse FW for doing so. It’s simply not the correct
    tool for these days. I recently purchased SKETCH and it’s sooooo
    coooool. And for each single “o” I’ll create a screencast, for sure.
    This ensures the next third.

  3. The final third? This is consequently setting up the FW-doc. There
    are no questions left, cause everything already exists. Whether
    building it form scratch (preferably) or using framework like
    bootstrap or using templates (that need to match the story of step1)
    doesn’t matter. Make yourself clear the different ways of positioning
    and its single use and sense.

This is a workflow of modern web design, tested by myself -
bulletproof.

The times of placing and replacing (drop and drag) are gone and
they’ll never come back. For the one it is a pain, for the other it’s
a win by increase of professionalism. It’s up to you to which of those
chapters you’d like belonging to. And it has NOTHING to do with
Freeway!!!

Perhaps the wrong thread to post this, who cares?

Thanks for sharing the perspective!

leif halvard silli

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