Template Garden idea

Freeway
21

I agree, it’s just that from time to time I feel utterly compelled to
say as much for my own sanity.

Todd

On Apr 14, 2009, at 11:22 AM, Walter Lee Davis wrote:

As to Freeway being able to read HTML, I agree that would be
marvelous, but I’ve been with Freeway for such a long time, and seen
this question asked so many times, that my heart-felt belief is that
if it COULD be done, it WOULD have been done already.

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22

And every mention helps, as it gets the problem a little more “squeak”.

Walter

On Apr 14, 2009, at 12:25 PM, Todd wrote:

I agree, it’s just that from time to time I feel utterly compelled
to say as much for my own sanity.

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23

if you’re used to making a bunch of “comps” for your clients to choose between. You put that work into the idea, might as well be rewarded

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA… you are so sweet! i was saying donating, you say rewarded…
now i feel rejected and feverish…
:slight_smile:
No but serieous, i can imagine that some of you guy’s would do great in a thing like this!
and give a shout, i would realy support it!

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24

In which case its a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Without many
different designers submitting varied quality designs who would buy or
bother to look. The only way forward would be to use something like
Theme forest in the short term.

*Note the bit about actions included in templates - does this make the
whole thing a non starter?

David

On 14 Apr 2009, at 16:53, Walter Lee Davis wrote:

The only issue I have with just building this is the scale of the
proposition. Especially if you want to do commerce, there are sunk
costs every month that have to be recouped, and this is a big reason
why all of the “social” Freeway sites I’ve built so far have been
free.

I’d have to see some serious pent-up demand in order to take this on
and endure the death-by-a-thousand-paper-cuts that is setting up
commerce and paying monthly and annually for the privilege. I
realize this could be a Field of Dreams sort of thing – build it
and they will come. But it could also be a case of not enough of a
market (would that Freeway had the same sort of market penetration
as the Flash development application) to make it a going concern. I
also know of two such sites that launched with great fanfare over
the past ten years; both of them sunk without a trace. It may have
just not been their time yet, who knows. I’ll keep thinking about it.

Walter

On Apr 14, 2009, at 11:20 AM, eus wrote:

As i was reading what you said, i had flashden in mind… What
stupid i am sometimes, not realising it’s the same.
But i love this idea.

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25

Only if you used “paid” Actions to make part of your site work the way
it should. It would be the same if you included licensed clip art. You
have to pay in accordance with each licensed element’s terms. I could
not include Anti Spam in a template, because then my friend Tim would
be out the licensing fee per person who bought it. Or, I could mark up
the price to cover his fee, pass the money on to him, etc. But then I
have to mark it up enough to cover whatever “bite” the Garden chooses
to charge, and the whole thing spirals out of control pretty quickly.

Ideally, templates would be made with the built-in Actions, open-
source artwork, and would be “policed” before upload to make sure that
nothing local was specified (your server’s FTP password, maybe) in the
document.

In practice, any and all sort of errors and omissions would occur.

Further, some Actions are made in Bundles, some require a support
folder of files, and Freeway has trouble with both of these when the
recipient of a template does not have the same (or same version)
Action installed locally. Freeway always includes a “last resort”
archive of any Action you use in your document within the document
file itself. This works fine on simple one-script Actions, but
anything that requires additional resources gets the core fwaction
file archived, but everything else left off. And that way lies ugly
publish errors.

Walter

On Apr 14, 2009, at 12:30 PM, David Owen wrote:

*Note the bit about actions included in templates - does this make
the whole thing a non starter?

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26

i think templates, should be ( grand mother speaking) not including the extra actions you can buy. You could point out the extra bennefit of an action suit ( like the mals from Tim or his great image guardian) but i think you can not ‘sale’ a template with a action people should buy.
That make’s it custom made.

also how are the templates have to look? how many pages? and what kind of basics?
does it incl rights? ( ©?)
how does a great designer handle that?
and iff you incl. something like flash, what does that do to a copyright or flash file? ( lets say i make a flash menu and someone uses it, is it my menu or the one who uses it?)
and no i dont ask it for me. i could not care less, but i think its thinks people should think abouth.
??

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27

You would have to be very careful to prepare templates not to fall
fowl of any copyright, so photography unless your own could well be
out, same with any graphics that you have not explicitly created
yourself. Lest you risk a claim at some point in the future.

David

On 14 Apr 2009, at 17:51, eus wrote:

i think templates, should be ( grand mother speaking) not including
the extra actions you can buy. You could point out the extra
bennefit of an action suit ( like the mals from Tim or his great
image guardian) but i think you can not ‘sale’ a template with a
action people should buy.
That make’s it custom made.

also how are the templates have to look? how many pages? and what
kind of basics?
does it incl rights? ( ©?)
how does a great designer handle that?
and iff you incl. something like flash, what does that do to a
copyright or flash file? ( lets say i make a flash menu and someone
uses it, is it my menu or the one who uses it?)
and no i dont ask it for me. i could not care less, but i think its
thinks people should think abouth.
??

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28

All in all I think contacting the owners of ThemeForest
(http://themeforest.net/) and asking if they can set up a category for Freeway
templates is a great idea. The Freeway community gets a place to showcase the
creative talents of it’s users as well as the power of the software and
ThemeForset get given content on a plate. I see it as a win-win situation.
I totally agree with Walter’s views that building this again as a ‘walled
garden’ site would benefit the FW community but wouldn’t do much for the
application’s exposure in the wider web world. Also, as mentioned, templates
can live in both the Freeway category as well as in the HTML one. A double win.

As Walter mentions template designers do need to be aware of copyright and IP
issues and avoid including any content that they don’t own the rights to. This
includes actions, images, sound and video and even the fonts you use. I think
for the sake of complete transparency I’d like to see a simple text file in
each template package with the copyright details for every asset used. This
should prevent the template designer, any user, ThemeForset, or Softpress
getting into deep water should someone’s copyright get trampled over.
If you are thinking about submitting designs that you did for a client that
never got used look very carefully at the contract for the job. I know a lot,
in fact most, design agencies will own the rights to anything a designer
produces while in the employ of the company. Even though you created the design
it may not be yours to distribute, so be careful.

I’ve considered giving away sample Freeway templates that use my Mals E-Commerce
actions as a way to both promote the actions and show how they can be used to
set up shop very easily. Unfortunately because of the way Freeway embeds
actions in the document once you have the Freeway file you can simply keep
using it to create your online stores rather than going back and getting hold
of the action.
If Softpress ever make the FAST actions licensing functionality available to
third party action developers then maybe we can start to look at including
demos of actions in templates. Until then commercial actions in templates are
going to be out of bounds.

I don’t want to throw cold water what is a really great idea but I do want
everyone to be aware of the issues around doing this.
Regards,
Tim.

Quoting Walter Lee Davis email@hidden:

Only if you used “paid” Actions to make part of your site work the way
it should. It would be the same if you included licensed clip art. You
have to pay in accordance with each licensed element’s terms. I could
not include Anti Spam in a template, because then my friend Tim would
be out the licensing fee per person who bought it. Or, I could mark up
the price to cover his fee, pass the money on to him, etc. But then I
have to mark it up enough to cover whatever “bite” the Garden chooses
to charge, and the whole thing spirals out of control pretty quickly.
–
Extend Freeway the way you want with FreewayActions.com
http://www.freewayactions.com

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29

I feel compelled to pipe in here with with something that I don’t think is probably viable, but i’m gonna throw it out there anyway.

Softpress has the most exposure for this sort of thing, so why not entice them to put a CD full of templates (or downloadable .dmg) together for sale? Not just the ones online they already give away obviously, but a whole new batch from those among us interested in making a penny or two piece of the pie. They could be categorized by directory based on simplicity perhaps, or even by need of third party paid actions. Seems to me that if a really whiz bang template needed a third party action to be purchased separately, that would be additional sales generated in that direction.

Someone (or someones) would have to be the template police to make sure that template errors are fixed or work as intended. Softpress is not likely to be involved much. So then the question is is it worth the time to do it?

The problem with this, as with Walt’s original idea, is the tiny size of Freeway market. It’s all well and good to share templates among ourselves, but that’s what this forum does.

So the real question is; where is the market for a saleable template? If the templates are all html output and resources then the market is anyone with an html design app. If the market is Freeway users…maybe not so much.

Ramble ramble ramble etc.

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30

Hi Chuck,
you are right at one point, but the problem is, the Softpress has never don anything with the requests for templates. They stock the old ones so you can hardly find them, and have the one that are available now, for such al long time already… there is no fresh ‘blood’. ( iff you forgive my expression)

i don’t mean it in a bad way, but this is clearly not on one of softpres’s issue’s list.

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31

If it were my intention to build and sell templates, any templates,
even if it’s just for beer money, it would have to be for a market far
larger than just the micro FW community. There’s just doesn’t seem to
be enough potential for return to justify the work. But, if the plan
were to also include html files that were made available to the
broader non-FW audience as well then that might be more incentive
because the enormous mainstream market would offset the small FW one.

Todd

On Apr 14, 2009, at 12:32 PM, chuckamuck wrote:

So the real question is; where is the market for a saleable
template? If the templates are all html output and resources then
the market is anyone with an html design app. If the market is
Freeway users…maybe not so much.

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32

But todd, that is a whole different discussion! and htlm templates are availlable in many many many way’s…

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33

By all means make templates for FW users but don’t stop there. If you
want to encourage FW users to make templates for FW users then offer
them a market beyond FW as well. Entice them with the opportunity to
make a little more $ by making their work available to people on both
sides of the tracks. There’s no reason to limit your market to FW.
Start with FW, yes, but give non-FW users the opportunity to share in
your work as well. I thought the whole point of using Theme Forest was
to open the FW world up to a larger market. It’s not a different
discussion, it’s all part of a larger picture to help not just FWers
who want templates but to promote the FW product to a world that has
no idea it exists.

Todd

On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:16 PM, eus wrote:

But todd, that is a whole different discussion! and htlm templates
are availlable in many many many way’s…

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34

To jump in here very late and add my two cents, When I look for a
“Template” I look more for a “Layout” that I can easily change the
photos, border colors, backgrounds to my needs. I have seen templates
from other sites and programs that make it very difficult to modify.
So for the template designers out here please keep that thought in
mind when you offer a template, to include an easy way to modify.
Even though Freeway is so much easier than all other programs at this.

Dave W

On Apr 14, 2009, at 10:10 AM, David Owen wrote:

You would have to be very careful to prepare templates not to fall
fowl of any copyright, so photography unless your own could well be
out, same with any graphics that you have not explicitly created
yourself. Lest you risk a claim at some point in the future.

David

On 14 Apr 2009, at 17:51, eus wrote:

i think templates, should be ( grand mother speaking) not including
the extra actions you can buy. You could point out the extra
bennefit of an action suit ( like the mals from Tim or his great
image guardian) but i think you can not ‘sale’ a template with a
action people should buy.
That make’s it custom made.

also how are the templates have to look? how many pages? and what
kind of basics?
does it incl rights? ( ©?)
how does a great designer handle that?
and iff you incl. something like flash, what does that do to a
copyright or flash file? ( lets say i make a flash menu and someone
uses it, is it my menu or the one who uses it?)
and no i dont ask it for me. i could not care less, but i think its
thinks people should think abouth.
??

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35

It is worth spending a bit of time looking through the forum on ThemeForest to
get familiar with the sort of requests buyers make of the template designer. If
you do ship a Freeway template with associated HTML then be aware that you may
have to answer support requests about how the raw code can be extended or
modified to suit the user’s needs.
For example, how can I adjust the hight of this div or change the placement of
the nav bar without upsetting the rest of the design?
Regards,
Tim.

Extend Freeway the way you want with FreewayActions.com
http://www.freewayactions.com

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36

Along the same lines as Walt’s original thinking, how about posting sample pages instead with the offer of aquiring a template from it? You could list all the elements needed to recreate it, including the need to purchase third party actions. This way user knows what they are getting up front.

But, if eus doesn’t mind me using her as an example, she wants to use templates as a learning tool, not necessarily for the design. Up to this point these sorts of files have been available here for the most part as a response to a question regarding web page designing in Freeway. This is not strictly a template market.

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37

If

you do ship a Freeway template with associated HTML then be aware that you may
have to answer support requests about how the raw code can be extended or
modified to suit the user’s needs.
For example, how can I adjust the hight of this div or change the placement of
the nav bar without upsetting the rest of the design?
Regards,
Tim.
Extend Freeway the way you want with FreewayActions.com
http://www.freewayactions.com

Hi, that is just my point!
when you want to enter an template or design at flashden, or the themeforest it has to answer to certain terms to be allowed to added to the lists.
i’m sure, most of the potential buyers for freeway templates, would not have a clue on the html ( not without respect!!) or have no interest.
secound the language is often a barrier, ( and not sofware, but english)
I hear a lot of people telling me, they find the dutch support, very poor and a lot of elder people are to shy to ask in a different language, so buying a template would be interesting for them.

i know a lot of people find it a joke, to buy just a fw file, without the html, but let us not forget, why Freeway has this great communitie and why it is such a great programm. Because of the low threshold it has.

Why would we make it harder for FW users and make complicated templates??

Those who know how to work with htlm files in freeway ( and css and everything, ) don’t use templates but create theire own sites and in worse case, look around for inspiration!

The way Todd is now saying, would be ( like we say in the Netherlands ) carry water to the sea. Don’t take it wrong please Todd.

i realy feel, that when we ( hear hear) put some nice, adjustable templates on ‘a’ site, where people would know where to find it, buy it, it would help a lot of people understand the programm al lot more!

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38

NO i don’t mind at all. since you are one of the people who 'donated ’ me enough in the past that learned me so much. ( and i vallue it still)

i think a lot of people would love to see these files. But are also not to ashamed to buy it.
:slight_smile:

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39

I guess I don’t understand how offering the FW file to the FW user and
the source code to the non-FW user is a bad thing for anyone. But
that’s OK, there’s a lot I don’t understand and a lot I don’t need to
understand.

Todd

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40

Sorry Todd, i did not mean any of it to offend you!!

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