[Winks as he “flicks” his propeller beanie]
I do.
Does anyone design at a code level?
Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
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We differ on what design or the definition is. I view the coding part is more akin to a craft.
I come from a design/art school where every idea started with a pencil and paper. Not always practised by me these days. Past experience tells me design from that point usually ends up being better.
–
David Owen
Printline Advertising
On 9 Aug 2016, at 14:46, Todd email@hidden wrote:
[Winks as he “flicks” his propeller beanie]
I do.
Does anyone design at a code level?
Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
https://qreativ.space
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I just wanted to add that designing for Semantics or SEO is not a visual process either. A visual editor can only address a portion of web design. Not even the most important parts at that.
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I just wanted to add that designing for Semantics or SEO is not a visual process either. A visual editor can only address a portion of web design. Not even the most important parts at that.
How so?
Duncan
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As someone who creates beautiful hand-drawn photorealistic drawings with pencil and paper (absolutely no modesty intended) I understand very well the process you describe. I’m with ya.
[Laughs] But I wasn’t trying to make a statement about what constitutes “design” for myself or anyone else. I’m just being a shit, trying to inject a little playful banter with a flick of my propeller. Or so I thought.
I think I’ll go draw something and leave you guys’ to it. Later.
Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
We differ on what design or the definition is. I view the coding part is more akin to a craft.
I come from a design/art school where every idea started with a pencil and paper. Not always practised by me these days. Past experience tells me design from that point usually ends up being better.
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On 9 Aug 2016, 2:18 pm, Duncan Wilcox wrote:
I just wanted to add that designing for Semantics or SEO is not a visual process either. A visual editor can only address a portion of web design. Not even the most important parts at that.
How so?
Duncan
Well, that was fast. Now I must type more words.
Semantics-- as I’m sure you already know-- is a matter of parsing content with significant HTML tags so that page content has a meaningful structure despite its visual appearance. This is important because there are a number of users who do not consider the visual aspect of the web. For example, Google doesn’t give a crap how big or how red your words are; it doesn’t even notice if your images are even relevant… but with proper use of semantic structures, you can assist Google’s “understanding” of your site.
SEO works the same way… it takes place beyond visual content, or at least “behind” it.
Visually Edited Code Generators simply cannot look at visual content and assign relevance to it or organize it for non-visual presentation without human direction-- which would first require that human know something non-visual about how websites work.
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Well, that was fast. Now I must type more words.
Sorry about that, please accept my apologies.
Semantics-- as I’m sure you already know-- is a matter of parsing content with significant HTML tags so that page content has a meaningful structure despite its visual appearance. This is important because there are a number of users who do not consider the visual aspect of the web. For example, Google doesn’t give a crap how big or how red your words are; it doesn’t even notice if your images are even relevant… but with proper use of semantic structures, you can assist Google’s “understanding” of your site.
But perhaps a visual editor can offer the ability to create those semantic structures without also requiring you to understand code, http/2, the picture element, lazy css loading and the whole enchilada?
SEO works the same way… it takes place beyond visual content, or at least “behind” it.
AFAIK at a code level SEO today is only 1) title/url/meta description, 2) sensible tagging, 3) content ordering. Not impossible tasks, I’m not sure why you suggest these would’t be editable visually. There are other non-code things like keywords and keyword density, but nothing really that you can’t do equally well, if not better, in a visual environment.
Visually Edited Code Generators simply cannot look at visual content and assign relevance to it or organize it for non-visual presentation without human direction-- which would first require that human know something non-visual about how websites work.
Why would a visual environment need to infer these properties from the content? Couldn’t the user edit that aspect as well, again visually?
I’m sorry but I don’t understand why you think the non-visual aspects can’t be edited visually. In fact I think it’s just a myth.
Duncan
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Gosh - gentlemen, what are doing with my Pinegrow talk (Respectively Ian’s)?
(Grumbling):
Let’s first substitute:
Designing “in” Browser
by
###Designing “for” Browser
It enables us to change the perception - slightly! It let’s us understand that web design is not the artsy-fartsy self-beloved discipline between Webdesigner and his client (such as creating a PDF) but is, under all respect, creating user experiences that are way under the hood of a long dead WYSIWYG.
Design is craft, not art. And web design is a job, requiring much more expertise than just define a couple of metas, title and keywords. Ever tried to “read” your code, ever tried to imagine how a “screen-reader” will present your content to - say handicapped people? Ever thought about usability, accessibility, sustainability and performance?
Designing for browser makes “click and happy” applications hard doing an excellent job anyway - cause it takes all the responsibility from us. You depend on app-author’s view, you trust in someone you don’t know. His expertise is yours.
The major portion of a web project is good research and authoring. It’s making decisions which user experience is causing what action. It’s about solving problems, creating them. It’s a craft - not art!
Cheers
Thomas
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Please send an e-mail to support(a)softpress.com. It does not matter what you put in the body of the message, you will get the same canned response about the demise of the enterprise. But at the bottom of that canned response you will see every serial number they have on file for you.
Walter
On Aug 9, 2016, at 9:46 AM, Todd email@hidden wrote:
[Winks as he “flicks” his propeller beanie]
I do.
Does anyone design at a code level?
Todd
Office (Chicago): 312.212.3955
https://qreativ.space
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hello!
I’m freeway user version 3.0 to 6.0, and thought version up to
7.0. But A sad event happened. I still love freeway, and want to get 7.0.
I find such address
http://sites.fastspring.com/softpress/product/freeway7pro
this address is alive?
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I think this Pinegrow thread is becoming the ONLY thread on FWtalk.
But I am reading all the posts. I especially appreciate the insights of Duncan, developer of Sparkle, asking questions that make us ponder Pinegrow in light of what Sparkle offers. I think that is a very important part of this thread.
As to serial numbers, well no, there is no relation to this thread AT ALL. Email SoftPress and if they don’t replay after 7 days, then start a new thread entitled, “HELP ME. SOFT PRESS WON’T” or something like that so we who have SN’s can consider how to rectify the situation for you.
As to coding, look, I am not ignorant of it. I actually program PIC MCU’s in Assembly, which as most of you know is pretty much machine language, just a tad easier. I never program PICs in a HLL like C because, well, I don’t have time to learn C, and I know ASM. But the key difference is that I wrote ASM code on a PIC to turn I/O pins ON or OFF. Sometimes I’ll dive in coding without even having sketched out the entire plan on what I want the chip to do. Yes, I actually program PICs on the fly. Somehow, I see it as liberating. Anyway, tt’s an entirely different concept than the web. There are no graphics that I deal with on PICs. It’s just an embedded controller in a security system or light flasher or siren device. That’s it. So even though part of my brain knows code, I don’t have the time or desire to deal with it on the web.
Sometimes I have only 5 minutes to make a quick change to a website. I can do that now in Freeway. And yes, that includes “code changes” like “meta tag changes” or “HTML markup” changes, all done within Freeway.
If I wanted to optimize code on the web like I optimize code in Assembly on my PICs, then yes, I would follow the route Thomas proposes in Pinegrow (and thank you again for that video, Thomas). But again, that forces you to think like a web CODER, and despite knowing assembly on a PIC, I am not wanting to be a WEB coder. I want instead to dump my right brain on the web as fast and as efficiently as possible. I know the content I need to dump on the web, and I just want to make it pretty AND take into consideration how it will all look in Japanese text (which means Web Fonts pose a problem for me).
That is why I still don’t see Pinegrow winning my heart over other web design apps like Sparkle or Blocs. But as of right now, I am still on Freeway Pro 7.
The reason I continue to follow this thread is because Pinegrow seems to have the best “HTML import” of any app on the market. If Freeway stops working one day, and you need to make modest edits of existing web content, you can dump that content into Pinegrow and change it. To me, that is nothing short of amazing. It’s amazing because that is the HTML IMPORT feature we all have begged SoftPress to add to Freeway for ages. But again, that would be a “last resort” use of Pinegrow, as opposed to using it daily for new designs.
–James Wages
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Nicely said everyone. Thanks for helping observers like me.
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I never heard about it, but for anyone who thinks this program could be
usefull in some way: Dragie. With an embedded CSS/JS coder. 19 bucks.
Briahsoft Technologies
https://deals.ondesoft.com/search?query=Briahsoft+Technologies
2016-08-10 14:42 GMT+02:00 Hoffkids email@hidden:
Nicely said everyone. Thanks for helping observers like me.
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A lot has changed with Pinegrow since this discussion in 2016 and the then version 2.
Today they released Pinegrow 4 (a continuation of Pinegrow 3), which includes a huge UI / User Interface rewrite. It now includes things such as a comprehensive Visual CSS Editor, and many more feature advancements for smarter, easier and faster visual web development. Bootstrap 4 support, Foundation 6.4+ coming soon, and so much more.
If you have not looked at it in a while, now is the time to reevaluate. It may be a welcome or needed addition to your toolset of visual web development apps, with the addition of all the powerful features you need in development.
Version 4 is a huge progression of Pinegrow, check out the following video to see whats new.
Pinegrow 4 Overview Video – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITSMOYJ6usA
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Fascinating. The GUI is rather compelling, although it’s clear you still need a firm grasp of the code to get the most out of the strangely-named “Pinegrow.”
Since you mention the new Pinegrow it’s only logical for us to conclude that you yourself use it. As such, I’d like to ask the following:
- How do I create responsive tables that hold tabular data?
- How do I add a site wide search feature that ties in with Google Custom Search?
These are the 2 features missing from Blocs that are important to me and keep me from using Blocs. The same would be true of any other web design tool. For now, Freeway does not empower my feeble mind to easily create Responsive sites (nor Responsive tables), but it has allowed me for YEARS to use a Sitewide search feature, which in my case is Google Custom Search (previously, I used Atomz).
Thanks,
James Wages
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These are the 2 features missing from Blocs that are important to me and keep me from using Blocs … For now, Freeway does not empower my feeble mind to easily create Responsive sites (nor Responsive tables).
Conclusion?
Either the one or the other - period!
… but it has allowed me for YEARS to use a Sitewide search feature, which in my case is Google Custom Search (previously, I used Atomz).
Keep Freeway and don’t ask app developers for those features. Most of them simply depend on the framework they’re based on. So preferably ask the bootstrap and/or foundation guys extending their stuff.
Admittedly a search feature is somehow more tricky. But behind every action in Freeway, there is a script! I remember adding a search feature even to a FWP generated WebYep (remote stuff) site. It worked perfectly fine. It was one script of dozens.
Pinegrow is very different to all apps currently available. Because you work with native HTML, CSS and JS you can, in theory (and effectively) write your own plugin with both functions. For the responsive table I even did it myself. It’s just a matter of the correct HTML5 terms/elements available in the library and a couple of classes. It even doesn’t require a plugin - just pure knowledge about the craft web design requires. One could say: Copy and Paste.
Cheers
Thomas
PS:
Just in case of interest. Those are the features I currently have available in my own grid. It enables me working extremely quick
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“Copy and Paste” is indeed what most people want to do when it comes to getting content on the web, I think. I am not talking about web design gurus. I am talking about most people.
Most people have graphics and videos and text content they want to “copy and paste” into a responsive format that looks nice. The problem then becomes how to customize the end result so it doesn’t look like a template site but something unique. And once you do that, you realize you need things like site search and it’s not really a simple matter of using “copy and paste” to achieve that, especially when it comes to making the search field look and act like you want.
So it all starts off as a lovely “copy and paste” concept, but then ends up with you either becoming somewhat of a coder or paying someone who is. The beauty of Freeway in the early days was that it gave “the rest of us” a relatively intuitive and WYSIWYG way to put things on the web (at least, it was in my mind at the time of FW2.0). But now in the world of Responsive sites, Freeway is no longer than “just copy-and-paste and be done!” app. Perhaps that is one reason for the current rewrite in SWIFT. We can only hope.
With that said, I like the easy concept behind Blocs and to some extent the latest version of PineGrow. But again, to be consistent with the “bag of tools – just use one and go!” concept of Blocs, as I said before, the two additional “ready to use for even brain dead people” tools it needs are:
- Site search that easily ties in with Google Custom Search (or similar).
- Responsive tables (that hold tabular data)
None of us know when or even if a fabulously new rewrite of Freeway, written from the ground up in SWIFT, will see the light of day. We hope it will, and hope it will debut soon, but we do not nor cannot know. As such, we continue using Freeway while mulling our fall-back options. For me, Blocs is a very promising app that could be a Freeway replacement with just a little more functionality. PineGrow too, perhaps. But for now, I still use Freeway Pro 7.
Best wishes,
James Wages
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Blocs is a stable and very fast peace of websoftware, and is constantly
updated by the programmers. It has its quirks and steep learning curve to
get things finetuned. But with every update its getting better.
If you want to continue the look and feel of Freeway, with the designer in
mind: take a look at Adobe’s Muse. A free design tool with lots of
documentation, tuts, (third party) widgets (compare with Freeway Actions)
and with a growing amount of (M)users. And already with third party design
kits to help you get started very quickly
http://smartblocks.widgetsformuse.com/
or a huge amount here:
https://musewidgets.com/collections/widgets
Enjoy,
2017-11-24 1:33 GMT+01:00 JDW email@hidden:
“Copy and Paste” is indeed what most people want to do when it comes to
getting content on the web, I think. I am not talking about web design
gurus. I am talking about most people.Most people have graphics and videos and text content they want to “copy
and paste” into a responsive format that looks nice. The problem then
becomes how to customize the end result so it doesn’t look like a template
site but something unique. And once you do that, you realize you need
things like site search and it’s not really a simple matter of using “copy
and paste” to achieve that, especially when it comes to making the search
field look and act like you want.So it all starts off as a lovely “copy and paste” concept, but then ends
up with you either becoming somewhat of a coder or paying someone who is.
The beauty of Freeway in the early days was that it gave “the rest of us” a
relatively intuitive and WYSIWYG way to put things on the web (at least, it
was in my mind at the time of FW2.0). But now in the world of Responsive
sites, Freeway is no longer than “just copy-and-paste and be done!” app.
Perhaps that is one reason for the current rewrite in SWIFT. We can only
hope.With that said, I like the easy concept behind Blocs and to some extent
the latest version of PineGrow. But again, to be consistent with the “bag
of tools – just use one and go!” concept of Blocs, as I said before, the
two additional “ready to use for even brain dead people” tools it needs are:
- Site search that easily ties in with Google Custom Search (or similar).
- Responsive tables (that hold tabular data)
None of us know when or even if a fabulously new rewrite of Freeway,
written from the ground up in SWIFT, will see the light of day. We hope it
will, and hope it will debut soon, but we do not nor cannot know. As such,
we continue using Freeway while mulling our fall-back options. For me,
Blocs is a very promising app that could be a Freeway replacement with just
a little more functionality. PineGrow too, perhaps. But for now, I still
use Freeway Pro 7.Best wishes,
James Wages
freewaytalk mailing list
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Oh and Blocs has on Black Friday a 50% discount I noticed…
2017-11-24 12:49 GMT+01:00 email@hidden:
Blocs is a stable and very fast peace of websoftware, and is constantly
updated by the programmers. It has its quirks and steep learning curve to
get things finetuned. But with every update its getting better.If you want to continue the look and feel of Freeway, with the designer in
mind: take a look at Adobe’s Muse. A free design tool with lots of
documentation, tuts, (third party) widgets (compare with Freeway Actions)
and with a growing amount of (M)users. And already with third party design
kits to help you get started very quickly
Home - MuseGrid
http://smartblocks.widgetsformuse.com/
or a huge amount here:
https://musewidgets.com/collections/widgetsEnjoy,
2017-11-24 1:33 GMT+01:00 JDW email@hidden:
“Copy and Paste” is indeed what most people want to do when it comes to
getting content on the web, I think. I am not talking about web design
gurus. I am talking about most people.Most people have graphics and videos and text content they want to “copy
and paste” into a responsive format that looks nice. The problem then
becomes how to customize the end result so it doesn’t look like a template
site but something unique. And once you do that, you realize you need
things like site search and it’s not really a simple matter of using “copy
and paste” to achieve that, especially when it comes to making the search
field look and act like you want.So it all starts off as a lovely “copy and paste” concept, but then ends
up with you either becoming somewhat of a coder or paying someone who is.
The beauty of Freeway in the early days was that it gave “the rest of us” a
relatively intuitive and WYSIWYG way to put things on the web (at least, it
was in my mind at the time of FW2.0). But now in the world of Responsive
sites, Freeway is no longer than “just copy-and-paste and be done!” app.
Perhaps that is one reason for the current rewrite in SWIFT. We can only
hope.With that said, I like the easy concept behind Blocs and to some extent
the latest version of PineGrow. But again, to be consistent with the “bag
of tools – just use one and go!” concept of Blocs, as I said before, the
two additional “ready to use for even brain dead people” tools it needs are:
- Site search that easily ties in with Google Custom Search (or similar).
- Responsive tables (that hold tabular data)
None of us know when or even if a fabulously new rewrite of Freeway,
written from the ground up in SWIFT, will see the light of day. We hope it
will, and hope it will debut soon, but we do not nor cannot know. As such,
we continue using Freeway while mulling our fall-back options. For me,
Blocs is a very promising app that could be a Freeway replacement with just
a little more functionality. PineGrow too, perhaps. But for now, I still
use Freeway Pro 7.Best wishes,
James Wages
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Information for existing FreewayTalk / Groups.io users - Site Feedback - Softpress Talk
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Or …
Coffeecup’s Responsive Design Pack or any stand-alone app … this weekend everything is on sale 35% off with code CYBER35
– Richard
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