Having installed 10…4.11 and re-initiatiated accounts in Mail, I set it to work.
It got the mail, ok. But it’s not possible to reply! the Reply button doesn’t work, nor does apple+R. Forward button works, new mail button works, but reply?..zilch. One of the main functions of email and it don’t work.
Mail version 2.1.3
OSX is a distressingly poor experience…
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On 31 Jul 2008, at 13:45, hugh wrote:
Having installed 10…4.11 and re-initiatiated accounts in Mail, I
set it to work.It got the mail, ok. But it’s not possible to reply! the Reply
button doesn’t work, nor does apple+R. Forward button works, new
mail button works, but reply?..zilch. One of the main functions of
email and it don’t work.Mail version 2.1.3
OSX is a distressingly poor experience…
No it isn’t, Hugh, it’s an incredibly rich one. You mean that YOU are
finding it a distressing experience, which is a very different thing.
You seem to be getting most of your crucial applications AND operating
systems already installed on odd disks here and there. Might that have
something to do with it? I’ve been using OS X since it came out and
I’ve never had any problems worth talking about. Not with
applications, not with fonts, and not with Mail. I say this, not to
boast, but to put forward what, for most people I’d think, is a
typical experience.
In my experience, over the past eight years or so, you install OS X,
it Just Works™ and your life is suddenly much easier in almost every
way. Mine was, anyway.
best wishes,
Paul Bradforth
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Ok, that’s what I mean, Paul…for ME it’s a distressingly poor experience!
I’m not going out of my way to make things difficult, believe me. I’ve better things to do. But there have been all sorts of issues, and ‘upgrading’ to Tiger has just made things worse. Latest scenarios are Mail not working, and I notice Safari won’t let me tab between fields in a form using the tab key. Not to mention being unable to preview Freeway php pages (see other thread)
When notification of your email came in (to Thunderbird, because I’ve ditched Mail), I clicked the link and it opened this site in Safari so I could respond. But I had to give up on that, too, because the cursor was lagging behind and then, after ten lines or so, it wouldn’t let me type anything else in the message box! I gave up and moved over to Firefox, where I am successfully, and copiously, replying to you!
I have classic (9.2) on the same machine and it really zips along at frightening speed compared to working in OSX…
regards
Hugh
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Hugh, it really sounds like you’re having an awful time with OSX, all
I would suggest is that you do a complete, fresh reinstall. I don’t
know of anyone who’s had as many problems with it as you have, unless
something has become corrupted or their Mac is on the way out - which
I hope not.
From my experience, and I’m still on 10.4.11, so not completely up
to date yet, although I’m on an Intel Mac, OSX is waaaaay faster than
Classic in everything I do.
Good luck anyway, but it does sound like you have some serious issues
either with software or hardware.
Trev
On 31 Jul 2008, at 15:07, hugh wrote:
Ok, that’s what I mean, Paul…for ME it’s a distressingly poor
experience!I’m not going out of my way to make things difficult, believe me.
I’ve better things to do. But there have been all sorts of issues,
and ‘upgrading’ to Tiger has just made things worse. Latest
scenarios are Mail not working, and I notice Safari won’t let me
tab between fields in a form using the tab key. Not to mention
being unable to preview Freeway php pages (see other thread)When notification of your email came in (to Thunderbird, because
I’ve ditched Mail), I clicked the link and it opened this site in
Safari so I could respond. But I had to give up on that, too,
because the cursor was lagging behind and then, after ten lines or
so, it wouldn’t let me type anything else in the message box! I
gave up and moved over to Firefox, where I am successfully, and
copiously, replying to you!I have classic (9.2) on the same machine and it really zips along
at frightening speed compared to working in OSX…regards
Hugh
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If you can run 9.2 then the specs of the machine may be why OSX is
slow, I have found with OSX the secret is generally RAM, RAM, RAM and
more RAM. Of course if you are working on an old machine then there
will be other restrictions that will slow things up.
HTH
On Jul 31, 2008, at 4:07 PM, hugh wrote:
I have classic (9.2) on the same machine and it really zips along at
frightening speed compared to working in OSX…
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Hi Mike,
Not the fastest machine in the field, I’m sure - G4 450 dual processor, 576 RAM. I have an additional 512mb strip on order.
It could be the reason, although the Mail and Safari things?..well, I just put that down to Apple, I’m afraid. Firefox and Thunderbird work ok.
But the speed with which windows open and close in 9.2, and how fast it saves files, the general slickness, is awesome compared to the tedious spinning colourwheel in OSX. Oh, and don’t try and do anything while that wheel is spinning!..I’ve frozen programmes and even OSX doing that!
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On 31 Jul 2008, at 15:07, hugh wrote:
Ok, that’s what I mean, Paul…for ME it’s a distressingly poor
experience!I’m not going out of my way to make things difficult, believe me
Hugh, I’m not so sure about that. Perhaps you are inadvertently
making things difficult. If I remember some of your previous posts
correctly:
You have a copy of Photoshop without installation disks
You have a copy, perhaps two, of OS X of varying vintages, also
without installation disks.
You’ve had trouble previewing due to two differing version of Safari.
You’re in the process of installing another hard disk which has a
version of OS X pre-installed on it (correctly, I hope - do you know
if it is?) and you’re not sure of the jumper settings, neither were
you sure you could reformat it for Mac use
You haven’t been directly involved in the installation of any of your
system software
If that were me, I’d be so worried about all the above that whether it
all actually booted up or not would be a minor niggle by comparison.
Did you get your jumper settings fixed properly? About six months ago
I put an extra internal drive in both my G5 and my wife’s G4. The G5
was a doddle, it was a Seagate disk I was installing and the
instructions by both Apple and Seagate were clear. The disk I put in
the G4 was a Western Digital, the instructions were ambiguous by
comparison and I did a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between the Apple
help pages and Western Digital’s site. When I first fired it up it
booted with all kinds of quirks that I wont sum up now, but I had to
turn it off again and after about another half hour searching Western
Digital’s site and looking at jumper setting diagrams I finally found
a tiny footnote way down the page telling me the jumper settings I’d
been using, the ones they told me to use, were only to be used [Inset
the digital equivalent of ‘only by a left-handed person on a Wednesday
when the wind’s in the East’]
If I were you, I’d buy myself a brand new proper shrink-wrapped
version of Tiger. I’d back up everything you own on both machines,
wipe 'em both and do proper clean identical installations of Tiger on
both machines, then update them from Software Update online. If your
copy of Photoshop is registered with Adobe, then you may be able to
buy either an update for £130 or so, or persuade Adobe to sell you
some replacement installation disks for a few quid, and thus get a
clean, proper installation of that too.
best wishes,
Paul Bradforth
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This is pretty much the basement of what you can expect Panther to
run on, I’m afraid. I doubt very much that you would be able to
install Tiger on it. And with that little amount of RAM, you are
going to be swapping out to (a very slow) disk over and over many
times a minute.
I had one of these for many years. You’re right – Mac OS 9 ran
circles around Mac OS X on that iron. However, Mac OS 9 needed to be
re-started daily, sometimes more than that, in order to keep its
memory clear.
If you were to put a brand new retail Mac OS X install disk into the
drive and try to install, it wouldn’t let you because it would
(correctly) conclude that you would hate the experience.
I recently bought my oldest daughter a new Mini to replace her creaky
G3. I walked in to my independent Mac retailer, walked out ten
minutes later with a tiny lunchbox-sized carton (and $500 lighter),
plugged it in, and it worked. Really, really well.
At a certain point, the cost of your own time spent debugging and
supporting an aging piece of hardware will truly outstrip any
residual value in that hardware. Think laterally – you may be able
to find a different way to get your work done.
Walter
On Jul 31, 2008, at 10:41 AM, hugh wrote:
Not the fastest machine in the field, I’m sure - G4 450 dual
processor, 576 RAM. I have an additional 512mb strip on order.
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I have the same desktop and also a 1.25 DP machine, the DP 450 was put
on tha back burner with 1GB RAM long ago because it just was too
sluggish with OSX, I also have a G4 DP 1.25 with 10.3 and 1 GB RAM
running on it and it is no comparison to my MacBook with 3 GB or Ram
and 10.4, the laptop just leaves the DP 1.25 standing, so much so I
don’t use the desktop any more and keep it just for an emergancy.
OSX has come a long way between 10 and 10.4, the faster the machine
and the more RAM the better, it works really well now but it is RAM
hungry and I would be very doubtfull if you will ever match the speed
of 9.2 on the DP 450 using OSX (on that box).
Mike
On Jul 31, 2008, at 4:41 PM, hugh wrote:
Hi Mike,
Not the fastest machine in the field, I’m sure - G4 450 dual
processor, 576 RAM. I have an additional 512mb strip on order.It could be the reason, although the Mail and Safari things?..well,
I just put that down to Apple, I’m afraid. Firefox and Thunderbird
work ok.But the speed with which windows open and close in 9.2, and how fast
it saves files, the general slickness, is awesome compared to the
tedious spinning colourwheel in OSX. Oh, and don’t try and do
anything while that wheel is spinning!..I’ve frozen programmes
and even OSX doing that!
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On 31 Jul 2008, at 15:41, hugh wrote:
Not the fastest machine in the field, I’m sure - G4 450 dual
processor, 576 RAM. I have an additional 512mb strip on order.It could be the reason, although the Mail and Safari things?..well,
I just put that down to Apple, I’m afraid. Firefox and Thunderbird
work ok.
Hugh, you’re doing yourself a disservice when you ‘just put it down
to Apple’, because it means it’ll be harder for you to get it fixed
with an attitude like that - you’ll be looking in the wrong places.
Apple don’t always do everything right, but with Mail and Safari I
think they were very successful. I speak with some experience - my
wife’s G4 (which used to be my old machine) is EXACTLY the same spec.
as the one you describe above, right down to the amount of RAM in it.
She is not at all ‘techy’ and leaves maintenance and the like to me.
She sleeps it at night, but never actually turns it off and it runs
for weeks/months/whatever with zero problems. Whenever I do any
routine maintenance on her machine, her uptime figure always amazes
even me, and I’m used to it 
When her machine was my main machine,
it had run every version of OS X since the decidedly flaky very first
version seven or eight years ago. It’s run 'em all without complaint,
and without going wrong once.
Both she and I use Mail and Safari all the time with zero problems. I
suppose I just put that down to Apple…
best wishes,
Paul Bradforth
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On 31 Jul 2008, at 15:54, Walter Lee Davis wrote:
This is pretty much the basement of what you can expect Panther to
run on, I’m afraid. I doubt very much that you would be able to
install Tiger on it. And with that little amount of RAM, you are
going to be swapping out to (a very slow) disk over and over many
times a minute.
Agree with your post totally Walter; a mini would do very nicely for
Hugh, or something similar, maybe from the refurb store. I just wanted
to say regarding the above that the G4 mentioned in my previous mail
to Hugh does, in fact, run Tiger; all the glory I bestowed on it in my
previous mail is happening under 10.4.11.
best wishes,
Paul Bradforth
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Very interesting responses, and I do hear your recommendations and thank you for them because I know they are well meant. Thanks Paul, and Walter of course, yes I did get the jumpers working!
However, I will be buying some more RAM and that’s it. I’m not running along with any cartel which requires me to constantly splash out on new hardware and software just to keep up with its (not mine) operating system. End of story. This is the technology trap as the big powers intended it, but it’s not for me I’m afraid!
As Paul points out, Tiger can run just fine on a G4 dual 450. I just wish it would on mine. It is running fine on my Powerbook Titanium G4 800 512mb, if not exactly a ball of fire.
And yes, I do actually have the shiny celophane wrapped disk…version 10.4.6…includes Xcode2, whatever that is (a movie?)
H.
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On 31 Jul 2008, at 17:04, hugh wrote:
Very interesting responses, and I do hear your recommendations and
thank you for them because I know they are well meant. Thanks Paul,
and Walter of course, yes I did get the jumpers working!
Yes, they are well meant. Glad you got the jumpers working.
However, I will be buying some more RAM and that’s it. I’m not
running along with any cartel which requires me to constantly splash
out on new hardware and software just to keep up with its (not mine)
operating system. End of story. This is the technology trap as the
big powers intended it, but it’s not for me I’m afraid!
Hugh, stop it! I fear for your well-being with that attitude. Nobody
‘requires’ you do do anything. There are no cartels. There’s just
great technology that keeps getting both better AND cheaper. What
other field of endeavour can you say that about?
OS X may not offer you blinding speed compared to OS 9, that’s not
what it’s for. With OS X, you can work smarter, which usually
translates to faster in my world, regardless of the actual speed the
machine runs at. YOU run faster on OS X, and that’s what really
counts. But you have to stop hating it and blaming stuff on ‘cartels’
and ‘technology traps’; if OS X is a technology trap, bring me more,
and quickly.
One example: I’m a photographer and I deal with folders with maybe two
or three or even five hundred pictures inside. When OS X gave me
decent sized previews in a Finder window, column view it was a small
revolution in my workflow. I’d have paid £50 for that functionality
alone - it actually gave me more time with my family. Come to think of
it, column view itself was quite a revolution. And it was only a tiny,
tiny part of the rest of OS X. The rest of OS X turned out to be
seeded throughout with similar little gems which Apple didn’t even
tout all that much. Spotlight is another prime example - it could mean
the end of hierarchical folders, if that grabs you. Dump it anywhere
and Spotlight will find it. Spotlight alone is probably worth the
price of Tiger. Start typing in Spotlight and keep a close eye on the
results pane, because it’ll probably have found it before you’ve
finished typing. The ability to drag a favourite folder into the
Finder window sidebar or even, the lesser-know one, Command-drag it to
the top bar of a Finder window, alongside the icons. I won’t go on;
suffice it to say that the more you look at OS X, the better it gets,
but you have to look.
As Paul points out, Tiger can run just fine on a G4 dual 450. I just
wish it would on mine. It is running fine on my Powerbook Titanium
G4 800 512mb, if not exactly a ball of fire.And yes, I do actually have the shiny celophane wrapped
disk…version 10.4.6…includes Xcode2, whatever that is (a
movie?)
Then there are the seeds of your salvation! Empty the G4 and do a
clean install, and your worries should be over.
best wishes,
Paul Bradforth
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Paul,
With the greatest respect it IS a cartel. It’s Apple’s own internal cartel which is ‘machines sell OS sell machines sell OS’…ad infinitum. It IS also a technology trap. You’re welcome to be enthusiastic about technology, many are . Me, I can leave it, I’m more interested in other things.
Hence maybe I prefer the known ground of OS9 with it’s familiarity, fewer options, tricks and treats. I really am not interested in learning a whole new game when I can mostly churn out what I want in the old one - particularly when the new game is not the ‘seamless’ wonder that was touted, but a nightmare of neverending hardware and software upgrades. (‘seamless’…the funniest word to ever be re-invented by the computer industry)
Empty the G4 and do a clean install?..you must be f joking! Do you really want to take me to the brink of sanity!
kind regards
Hugh
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On 31 Jul 2008, at 18:49, hugh wrote:
Hence maybe I prefer the known ground of OS9 with it’s familiarity,
fewer options, tricks and treats. I really am not interested in
learning a whole new game when I can mostly churn out what I want in
the old one - particularly when the new game is not the ‘seamless’
wonder that was touted, but a nightmare of neverending hardware and
software upgrades.
This sounds like the famous old ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’, to
which the answer is: ‘if it ain’t broke, you haven’t been paying
attention’.
Still, fair enough Hugh. I won’t keep on at you.
best wishes,
Paul Bradforth
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This sounds like the famous old ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’, to
which the answer is: ‘if it ain’t broke, you haven’t been paying
attention’.
As aphorisms go, I concede to the first one to some extent! But I’m at a loss to understand at all the meaning of the second?..
I think we must agree to disagree, Paul! My complaints are but the mere tip of an iceberg, anyway, and this is not the place for that discussion!
I suppose it comes down to my being not sufficiently interested in technology per se. I have to grapple with it to a certain level, but beyond that it bores me. And I’m afraid the whole fanfare of working ‘smarter’ and such bores me. Spotlight over hierarchical folders?..errr, no, it doesn’t grab me at all, not one iota!
That doesn’t mean I’m not interested in what you say. Nor does it mean I’m ungrateful for the incredibly knowledgeable assistance I receive here, unparalleled in my experience.
What it does mean is that I am approaching my ‘ceiling’ of interest in the technical side of the computer/internet affair. Or perhaps rather that my interest in it is starting to lean another way, towards the whole academic/philosophic question of communication…
I will ALWAYS welcome yours, and others, input here. And I’m afraid I’ll still need help as this is my breadwinner! If you can bear it, stick with me!
best regards
Hugh
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On 31 Jul 2008, 7:19 pm, hugh wrote:
And I’m afraid I’ll still need help as this is my breadwinner!
Hi Hugh,
It’s interesting that you say this is your breadwinner.
Yet you imply having up to date tools is no “interest” to you. I’ve never bought “the latest kit” but pretty close to latest at a knock down price. But without investing in these up to date tools, and this include hardware, software and the most important brainware (training the brain to take advantage of the last two) I’d be out of business. I really need to be “interested”!.
I was told many years ago by a wise bod; that in any business if you’re not moving forward, you’re in fact moving backwards.
Investing little or no money (or “interest”) in your business for the future is not a wise decision. Someone will come along with more investment, “interest” and importantly enthusiasm, and will take it from you, its only just a matter of time. Think of it as an equation between effort and investment over time.
Anyway coming back to the question;
I’m sorry I can’t help much with the Mail reply button. If it were me I’d re-install OSX on a spare (internal) hard disc put into your G4, and when running OK copy over the user account from the old disc using Migration Assistant.
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On 4 Aug 2008, at 10:55, WebWorker wrote:
Yet you imply having up to date tools is no “interest” to you. I’ve
never bought “the latest kit” but pretty close to latest at a knock
down price. But without investing in these up to date tools, and
this include hardware, software and the most important brainware
(training the brain to take advantage of the last two) I’d be out of
business. I really need to be “interested”!.
This is exactly what I meant the other day when I said ‘If it ain’t
broke, you haven’t been paying attention’.
best wishes,
Paul Bradforth
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On 4 Aug 2008, at 10:55, WebWorker wrote:
Yet you imply having up to date tools is no “interest” to you. I’ve
never bought “the latest kit” but pretty close to latest at a knock
down price. But without investing in these up to date tools, and
this include hardware, software and the most important brainware
(training the brain to take advantage of the last two) I’d be out of
business. I really need to be “interested”!.This is exactly what I meant the other day when I said ‘If it ain’t
broke, you haven’t been paying attention’.best wishes,
Paul Bradforth
Oh…sorry, Paul, I’d never have guessed. The aphorism seemed to imply that I should try and break things!! (or have things in a constant state of uncertainty while trying to figure out how the upgrade works… )
I am not disinterested…it’s just that at a certain point, my ‘ceiling’, I become disinterested. Because at that point the investment of time and money just doesn’t seem worth it anymore. As I said, at that point I have better things to do, more rewarding investments.
For example, the joys of understanding the inner workings of OSX have to get put aside in favour of trying to understand how the CMS Silverstripe works…it’s a more important investment to me.
I worked under OS8 and OS9 for years. They were relatively simple and relatively stable. Sure they fell over several times a day, but there was no ‘great mystery’ and work got done. Since I’ve migrated to OSX much less work gets done and much more time is spent fixing things and wondering why things behave like they do, and, yes, still falling over! My “real” experience. The only certainty I’m promised is that if I spend more money things will be OK… Oh yeah!
Anyway, probably best to leave this one here. Thanks everyone for the suggestions re Mail.
regards
Hugh
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On 4 Aug 2008, at 11:50, hugh wrote:
Oh…sorry, Paul, I’d never have guessed. The aphorism seemed to
imply that I should try and break things!! (or have things in a
constant state of uncertainty while trying to figure out how the
upgrade works…
No Hugh, I didn’t mean that at all, and you seem to realise that in
your first sentence. You seem to wilfully misunderstand me.
I am not disinterested…it’s just that at a certain point, my
‘ceiling’, I become disinterested. Because at that point the
investment of time and money just doesn’t seem worth it anymore. As
I said, at that point I have better things to do, more rewarding
investments.
See below.
I worked under OS8 and OS9 for years. They were relatively simple
and relatively stable. Sure they fell over several times a day, but
there was no ‘great mystery’ and work got done. Since I’ve migrated
to OSX much less work gets done and much more time is spent fixing
things and wondering why things behave like they do, and, yes, still
falling over! My “real” experience.
You’re making my case for me here. You used OS 8 and 9 for years, and
it took you a good proportion of that time to get as accustomed to
it as you were. It did for me. It didn’t happen overnight. Remember
that version (8.01 I think) where you had to boot without extensions
on just so you could apply a patch that enabled the Adobe ATM you’d
just installed to run at all? These were all things, times a dozen or
so, that we all learned as we went on with it. We needed the
experience of years to get a handle on all that stuff.
OS X doesn’t fall over, it’s enormously stable. If yours does, you
have local problems of some sort. I think we probably established that
a while back in any case?
So basically you’re saying that you don’t have time to fix problems
that have been caused by you trying to run OS X on a machine out of
the ark with insufficient RAM, with software that, in some cases, came
‘preinstalled’ and the provenance of which your are unsure of. Because
you have more rewarding investments.
The only certainty I’m promised is that if I spend more money things
will be OK…
You don’t need to spend more money, you have OS X already. Just a bit
of time to get the gremlins out of your machine, then get to know OS X.
best wishes,
Paul Bradforth
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