Moutain Lion, an animal to be feared?

Hi,

here I go, sticking my scrawny neck out again, but I’m getting worried about the pace of things for the ‘non-pros’ amongst us, for surely, with the main selling point of Freeway being it’s use for us HTMLphobics , these ‘non-pros’ must be in the majority.

It’s not the pace of development of Freeway that I’m talking about (more about that later), but that of the Mac OS. I use Snow Leopard on an iMac, one of those late 2006 17" jobs plagued by the dodgy screens; the use of two external 19" screens, however makes it a bargain at £120.
Snow Leopard is perfect for me. The (over) rapid release of Lion, with (for Apple) unusual, teething problems, and Apple’s adoption of the Microsoft ‘enforcement’ culture, Aka Windoze, has stopped me from going Lion. From the comments on this forum, I see that I am not alone in my caution.
I now see that 10.8, or ‘Mountain Lion’, is on the horizon, in direct competition with Windows 8, with both seeming to have abandoned the desktop computer, and going hell bent for the tablet, phone and touch symbol-control market.

Am I being paranoid in seeing, in the very near future, a state where those who seek to use new apps (by new, I mean, less than 5 years old) are forced to use the latest OS , only obtainable of course from the App store, and usable on the very latest gizmo.

It will be ironic, if the Internet, the freest source of information ever known to man, is only available to us, chained and entrapped, by Apple and Microsoft…

Apple seem to be hell bent on carving out an empire in much the same way as Microsoft were a decade ago.

Lastly, to go back to Freeway’s development, I have this horrid feeling that the delay in version 6 is that Softpress know that they will have to jump on the iOS/gesture driven bandwagon and are gauging the loss of we troglodytes against the new shiny market, promised by the pundits to be ‘just over the horizon’…

Bob


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

I think your fears are a bit unfounded - aptly shown by the recent update to 5.6.4 - which will serve Snow Leopard users well into the foreseeable future.

While the eventual release of 6 may well require 10.7 or greater I think it is unlikely that there will be ground breaking advances that require you to update to Lion for a Must Have feature.

To look at this from the basest standpoint - you require no more than a text editor to author the latest CSS3 and HTML5 pages!

David


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

Hi David,

thanks for your reply and the reassurances.

It 's not for myself, that I’m concerned, after all I’m only a tiddler in a very large pond and will survive; it’s the big fish amongst you: yourself, Deltadave, waltd and all the others who use FW Pro everyday to make their living, that concern me.

Don’t you feel the slightest resentful that you are being inexorably caught up in the ‘new is better’ hype - driving, gratuitous advertising - driving, public opinion - driving, market forces - driving, ‘new is better’ profit cycle of others, when all you want is to earn a crust and abide by the "if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ maxim?

I know from the main forum section that clients/sheep want the latest gizmo, “I want the fading, twirling, backflipping psychedelic , effect that web site >>>>>>>> has”, and you feel obliged to try and comply; but does this mean that you professionals have to be always dipping into your pockets for the latest OS and or hardware.

As usual I’m probably talking out of my fundament and way way above my league, so my apologies in advance.

Bob


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

On Feb 19, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Bob King wrote:

As usual I’m probably talking out of my fundament and way way above my league, so my apologies in advance.

First, no, you’re speaking your opinion, and that’s absolutely perfect for you to do. Personally, I like new and shiny things, and try to upgrade as soon as practical. There’s usually something I want to do that needs the latest version and can only be grudgingly done in the older version.

But “as soon as practical” is a very loose rule, and I interpret it as “as soon as it doesn’t break something else I depend on”. I love TextMate 1.5, use it every day. I could probably get it to work on Lion, but I’ve heard it’s a pain and I don’t have time to figure it out right now, so I’m sticking with Snow Leopard for the time being. (TM2 is in Alpha now, and moving fast, so I’m hopeful that I may be using Lion before Mountain Lion peeks out of its cave.) Conversely, I liked (not loved) Creative Studio 3, but a combination of client pressure (sending me files I couldn’t open) and crashes and rapacious memory usage in Snow Leopard made me concerned that I should upgrade to 5.5.

Walter


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

Don’t you feel the slightest resentful that you are being inexorably caught up in the ‘new is better’ hype -

Only when it is just that. Apple is not above advertising their wares in their best light and perhaps over gilding the lilly on some things, but for the most part their products meet or exceed expectations created by it.

But consumerism is(has?) getting out of hand. I think the fact that the American economy recovery depends so much on how much it spends on arguably unnecessary “things” is just unwise. But I digress…


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

I have to echo Walter’s thoughts on this - I am also a lover of shiny, new, latest, must have gizmos but I am also practical.

What the newest shiniest bit of kit tends to do is make it easier to make the whiz bang stuff. It doesn’t mean I cant do it with the kit I have - it might just take me longer.

But I do know that the latest gear might stop me from using something that I rely on just now. So until that problem is resolved I wont be taking the Lion, Mountain Lion leap!

D


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

At 16:18 -0500 18/2/12, Bob King wrote:

here I go, sticking my scrawny neck out again, but I’m getting
worried about the pace of things for the ‘non-pros’ amongst us, for
surely, with the main selling point of Freeway being it’s use for us
HTMLphobics , these ‘non-pros’ must be in the majority.

Just being HTMLphobic doesn’t make you a ‘non-pro’. It just means
that your ‘pro’ isn’t in the direction of coding.

There’s a whole range of computer usage from ‘playing’ to ‘heavy’.
Ignoring actual games, I would class ‘playing’ as email and browsing
and ‘heavy’ as using multiple applications or one or more
multi-window applications that require extensive input rather than
just reading output. You can do ‘playing’ on an iPad; you need a real
computer to do ‘heavy’.

Some people have real jobs that they do that only require the same
capability as ‘play’. Apple seems to be heading in a direction that
supports them but ignores the ‘heavy’ users. My last web project
involved running Freeway, a browser that was logged in to the site, a
browser that wasn’t logged in, an extra set of browser windows for
database manipulation, TextWrangler, FileMaker for reference to an
old database, Skype for communication with the client, plus email for
general use. I had these spread across an 27"iMac with a 24" extra
screen and a Mac Mini, both using 4 spaces and with Teleport allowing
one keyboard/mouse to control tit all. I’m sure many of you are more
than familiar with that sort of working. My wife has Lion on her
laptop so I’ve been able to experiment a bit, and it seem to be
geared to one workspace per application rather than one workspace per
multi-application function. You can have an application with windows
in several workspaces but it’s much harder and fiddlier to set up and
work with than with Spaces. It’s also more difficult to remember the
relative positions of the workspace you’re in and the one you want
next. You’re also expected to have a trackpad of some type that I
would only use for changing workspaces. (I run with all the swipe
options turned off on my MBP to reduce the distracting screen
jumps/grows/shrinks that you get from them).

Having to use Lion would slow me down and force me to think more
about my working screen environment instead of what I’m trying to
achieve than SL does.

It’s not the pace of development of Freeway that I’m talking about
(more about that later), but that of the Mac OS. I use Snow Leopard
on an iMac, one of those late 2006 17" jobs plagued by the dodgy
screens; the use of two external 19" screens, however makes it a
bargain at £120.
Snow Leopard is perfect for me. The (over) rapid release of Lion,
with (for Apple) unusual, teething problems, and Apple’s adoption of
the Microsoft ‘enforcement’ culture, Aka Windoze, has stopped me
from going Lion. From the comments on this forum, I see that I am
not alone in my caution.
I now see that 10.8, or ‘Mountain Lion’, is on the horizon, in
direct competition with Windows 8, with both seeming to have
abandoned the desktop computer, and going hell bent for the tablet,
phone and touch symbol-control market.

I fully agree.

Am I being paranoid in seeing, in the very near future, a state
where those who seek to use new apps (by new, I mean, less than 5
years old) are forced to use the latest OS , only obtainable of
course from the App store, and usable on the very latest gizmo.

Maybe, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen :slight_smile:

It will be ironic, if the Internet, the freest source of information
ever known to man, is only available to us, chained and entrapped,
by Apple and Microsoft…

Apple seem to be hell bent on carving out an empire in much the same
way as Microsoft were a decade ago.

Lastly, to go back to Freeway’s development, I have this horrid
feeling that the delay in version 6 is that Softpress know that they
will have to jump on the iOS/gesture driven bandwagon and are
gauging the loss of we troglodytes against the new shiny market,
promised by the pundits to be 'just over the horizon’Š

That doesn’t mean that Softpress have to force us to use only the IOS
methods. A trackpad is far less precise than a mouse, especially when
the pad also gives the click, and so is inferior in any design
application. One really bad thing for me would be if we were forced
to run with auto-save on. Personally I only save a FW document when
it’s nearer to what I want than the last save. There’s so much trial
and error (for me anyway) that I’d end up with lots of saved ‘errors’
and I’d have to do a deliberate save-as each time I saved.

Hopefully if there enough Mac users not making the switch to Lion
they will realise that they have got it wrong. After all, this forced
change is only a whim. There’s no fundamental reason for the change.
When we’ve been forced before there’s been an underlying technical
reason.

David


David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
email@hidden
www.ivdcs.co.uk


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

I wonder if Joe Billings is reading this thread?

I am surprised by, not just the percentage of responders who vouch an unwillingness to 'Go Lion", but also their seniority in the market place.

Perhaps we/Softpress, should not be worrying about Lion, mountain or savanna, but should be striving to perfect what is by far the most PRACTICAL and USABLE web site builder bar non.

Bob


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

On 20 Feb 2012, at 13:12, Bob King wrote:

I am surprised by, not just the percentage of responders who vouch an unwillingness to 'Go Lion", but also their seniority in the market place.

Well, I can’t claim much superiority in the market place these days, but I have to say I’m loving Lion. I do more writing now than web designing, and things like Gestures on the Magic Trackpad and iCloud have simplified my working life massively. Doing research on the web is a matter of literally flicking between bits of information. Using Evernote and Notational Velocity, I’m in heaven.
That said, I’d hate to have to use the trackpad to cut out something in Photoshop using the pen tool. I’d plug the Wacom in for that and, of course, it’s optional—I can plug the Wacom in.

I think Apple are being very clever, inasmuch as they are making both OS X and IOS much more like each other, without attempting to roll them into one, as Microsoft is intending to do with Windows. Incidentally, I did use Freeway to design a site recently, using only the trackpad, and found it a really good experience.

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

Buy my eBooks at:
http://www.paulbradforth.com/books/


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

On 20 Feb 2012, at 13:12, Bob King wrote:

I am surprised by, not just the percentage of responders who vouch an unwillingness to 'Go Lion", but also their seniority in the market place.

I wish to add that I am still Snow Leopard here, and point out that Mountain Lion won’t run on my Mac. So, even if I do go Lion, which I may or may not do depending on whether I really want to migrate to iCloud or not, that’s my lot. I am getting off the merry-go-round - unless I become very rich and can afford to upgrade my ageing MacBook Pro.

=o)

Heather


Imagic Design * Good Design - No Compromise
email@hidden
http://www.imagic-design.co.uk
Twitter @Imagic-Design
T: 01634 864017


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

Hi Paul,

your use of Rapidweaver to build your web site (I also used Rapidweaver to build mine), led me to check up on the opinion of the Rapidweaver community about Lion and Mountain Lion. It makes very interesting reading:

http://forums.realmacsoftware.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/55038/

I think the majority are p****d off with Apple and content with Snow Leopard.

Bob


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

On 20 Feb 2012, at 14:19, Bob King wrote:

your use of Rapidweaver to build your web site (I also used Rapidweaver to build mine), led me to check up on the opinion of the Rapidweaver community about Lion and Mountain Lion. It makes very interesting reading:

Hmm. This requires me to be diplomatic, as I don’t want to bad-mouth the RapidWeaver forum, and I know that some of them are on this forum too. However: my site as it is now, is no longer really representative of me or what I do. I had a two or three year RapidWeaver stint, after having used Freeway for donkeys years, and now I’m firmly back in the Freeway fold, not that I do much work these days. The front page of my site will explain why that is, to some extent, except that where it says ‘March this year’, it was actually March 2010, and we’ve been away from home ever since.

While doing my RapidWeaver stint, I wrote a couple of ebooks about it, which sold very well, and continue to do so. The site at the moment is purely a vehicle for selling those books, and giving away some free RapidWeaver tips and tricks. It will, one day, flower again, and will be done in Freeway when it does. At the moment, helping look after a 91-year-old takes up most of the energy I’ve got to spare…

And so to the diplomacy: I’m not sure I’d regard the RapidWeaver forum as the best place to get informed opinion on Lion. That’s all I’m saying on that score :wink:

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

Buy my eBooks at:
http://www.paulbradforth.com/books/


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

To add my weight to the Mountain Lion debate. I’m now at the point where my hardware is also deemed “too old” to run the next OS. Well, OK, 50% of what I’d use for work is anyway. My MacBook Pro is on its last OS iteration. My MacPro will, apparently, run it, though I don’t know what the performance will be.

My usual practice has been that the MacBook Pro becomes the “stunt Mac” when ding a major upgrade. I install on that, test my key software and then take the plunge on the MacPro if all is well. I won’t have that safety net, and without it my move to Mountain Lion will be taken more cautiously. I suspect it will kill my CS3 Suite anyway, so the price of an upgrade includes the move to CS5.5 (or CS6 by then).


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

Paul (Jennings)

I think your post hammers home my point like no other; the punch line:

“my move to Mountain Lion will be taken more cautiously. I suspect it will kill my CS3 Suite anyway, so the price of an upgrade includes the move to CS5.5 (or CS6 by then).”,

makes me happier than ever to stay in the back of the cave, banging the stones together, hoping one day, to get a glimmer of light.

Bob


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

On 20 Feb 2012, at 10:48, David Ledger wrote:

A trackpad is far less precise than a mouse, especially when the pad also gives the click, and so is inferior in any design application.

For what it’s worth, I’ve found that if you set the Trackpad to ‘tap=click’ it’s extremely precise and every bit as easy to use as a mouse. If you have it set to the default, ie, you have to physically press it down to click, it’s awful.

One really bad thing for me would be if we were forced to run with auto-save on. Personally I only save a FW document when it’s nearer to what I want than the last save. There’s so much trial and error (for me anyway) that I’d end up with lots of saved ‘errors’ and I’d have to do a deliberate save-as each time I saved.

Not wishing to sound snotty here, but are you sure you understand how the ‘auto-save’ works in Lion? I put auto save in quotes there because it isn’t really that. I used to really, seriously, hate any application that had auto-save (the old type) and I’d always turn it off because I hated the thought of it ‘auto-saving’ just as I’d done something drastic as an experiment, which we all sometimes tend to do, ie, ‘I wonder what it’d look like without seven of those eight text boxes’, and you delete them, and it saves it. Arrgh. But the so-called auto save in Lion doesn’t work like that at all. It’d be more accurate to call it ‘auto-versioning’. It’s foolproof, and you can’t lose any work due to using it.

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

Buy my eBooks at:
http://www.paulbradforth.com/books/


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

Hi folks,
Well I’m feeling like a positive primitive here because I’m still hanging
onto Leopard because the drivers within it produce better inkjet prints
than the upgrades, do, well, that’s the muttering within the photographic
community, and also I’m well and truly fed up with having to purchase yet
another CS/Photoshop version, where CS3 has done all I need really well,
and won’t function at all on Snow Leopard. I also had to purchase a
secondhand MacBook Pro so that I could stay with Leopard, and until the
whole kit expires, that’s where I’ll stay.
You can call me old fashioned, but I’m a believer in the “if it’s broke,
fix it, if it ain’t, keep going…”
And when I come to put my next website together, I’ll be using Freeway 5!
A lot of us are well an truly fed up with having to delve even deeper into
our pockets, and taking our old stuff down to the dump because it don’t
work anymore.
Enough.
Mark.

On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 5:48 AM, Paul Bradforth email@hiddenwrote:

On 20 Feb 2012, at 10:48, David Ledger wrote:

A trackpad is far less precise than a mouse, especially when the pad
also gives the click, and so is inferior in any design application.

For what it’s worth, I’ve found that if you set the Trackpad to
‘tap=click’ it’s extremely precise and every bit as easy to use as a mouse.
If you have it set to the default, ie, you have to physically press it down
to click, it’s awful.

One really bad thing for me would be if we were forced to run with
auto-save on. Personally I only save a FW document when it’s nearer to what
I want than the last save. There’s so much trial and error (for me anyway)
that I’d end up with lots of saved ‘errors’ and I’d have to do a deliberate
save-as each time I saved.

Not wishing to sound snotty here, but are you sure you understand how the
‘auto-save’ works in Lion? I put auto save in quotes there because it isn’t
really that. I used to really, seriously, hate any application that had
auto-save (the old type) and I’d always turn it off because I hated the
thought of it ‘auto-saving’ just as I’d done something drastic as an
experiment, which we all sometimes tend to do, ie, ‘I wonder what it’d look
like without seven of those eight text boxes’, and you delete them, and it
saves it. Arrgh. But the so-called auto save in Lion doesn’t work like that
at all. It’d be more accurate to call it ‘auto-versioning’. It’s foolproof,
and you can’t lose any work due to using it.

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

Buy my eBooks at:
Hi, it's ebOOxa


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

On 20 Feb 2012, at 21:42, Mark Lang wrote:

where CS3 has done all I need really well,
and won’t function at all on Snow Leopard

Really? Wow! I must have a special version then, because it’s fine here.

Well, all except Acrobat. I’ve removed Acrobat completely because it got so flakey.

Otherwise, InDesign, Photoshop and Frustrator are humming along nicely on Snow Leopard. I’m even reliably informed they work on Lion, too.

Heather


Imagic Design * Good Design - No Compromise
email@hidden
http://www.imagic-design.co.uk
Twitter @Imagic-Design
T: 01634 864017


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

At 18:48 +0000 20/2/12, Paul Bradforth wrote:

On 20 Feb 2012, at 10:48, David Ledger wrote:

A trackpad is far less precise than a mouse, especially when the
pad also gives the click, and so is inferior in any design
application.

For what it’s worth, I’ve found that if you set the Trackpad to
‘tap=click’ it’s extremely precise and every bit as easy to use as a
mouse. If you have it set to the default, ie, you have to physically
press it down to click, it’s awful.

Tap to click was on when I got my MBP in '09 and I just got random
clicks all over so I turned it off. I even got clicks from my shirt
cuff. All of these could well be usable if they could be set to only
work if, say, the Function key was down.

Not wishing to sound snotty here, but are you sure you understand
how the ‘auto-save’ works in Lion? I put auto save in quotes there
because it isn’t really that. I used to really, seriously, hate any
application that had auto-save (the old type) and I’d always turn it
off because I hated the thought of it ‘auto-saving’ just as I’d done
something drastic as an experiment, which we all sometimes tend to
do, ie, ‘I wonder what it’d look like without seven of those eight
text boxes’, and you delete them, and it saves it. Arrgh. But the
so-called auto save in Lion doesn’t work like that at all. It’d be
more accurate to call it ‘auto-versioning’. It’s foolproof, and you
can’t lose any work due to using it.

In that case I don’t. It’s not something my wife’s new MBP does
because all of the applications she uses are older. It’s the latest
13" MBP after years on a 12" iBook. She has iWork '09 (from my Family
Pack) and Nissus Writer, which she moved to pre-Pages. I don’t think
any of them auto-save under Lion.

Thanks,
David


David Ledger - Freelance Unix Sysadmin in the UK.
HP-UX specialist of hpUG technical user group (www.hpug.org.uk)
email@hidden
www.ivdcs.co.uk


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

So where is Auto Save in Lion? I can’t find it anywhere.
Trev

On 21 Feb 2012, at 11:55, David Ledger wrote:

At 18:48 +0000 20/2/12, Paul Bradforth wrote:

On 20 Feb 2012, at 10:48, David Ledger wrote:

Not wishing to sound snotty here, but are you sure you understand how the ‘auto-save’ works in Lion? I put auto save in quotes there because it isn’t really that. I used to really, seriously, hate any application that had auto-save (the old type) and I’d always turn it off because I hated the thought of it ‘auto-saving’ just as I’d done something drastic as an experiment, which we all sometimes tend to do, ie, ‘I wonder what it’d look like without seven of those eight text boxes’, and you delete them, and it saves it. Arrgh. But the so-called auto save in Lion doesn’t work like that at all. It’d be more accurate to call it ‘auto-versioning’. It’s foolproof, and you can’t lose any work due to using it.

In that case I don’t. It’s not something my wife’s new MBP does because all of the applications she uses are older. It’s the latest 13" MBP after years on a 12" iBook. She has iWork '09 (from my Family Pack) and Nissus Writer, which she moved to pre-Pages. I don’t think any of them auto-save under Lion.


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options

On 21 Feb 2012, at 12:17, Trevor Reaveley wrote:

So where is Auto Save in Lion? I can’t find it anywhere.

It’s everywhere, but only in applications that support it. Freeway doesn’t support it. If you launch a supported application, usually an Apple one, you’ll see that if you pull down the ‘File’ menu, there is no ‘Save As…’ command; it’s replaced with ‘Save a version’. If you do this in, say, TextEdit, and save a version, if you look at the title bar of the document window, you’ll see a little downward-pointing triangle which, if you click it, will allow you to browse previous versions. You can quit without saving the document, and it won’t ask if you want to, but next time you open it, it will be as you left it, already saved. It’s a kind of magic :slight_smile:
So, unlike what we’ve all thought of as ‘Auto Save’ in the past, you could be working on, say, a TextEdit or Pages document and then Select All, delete everything and then quit, but you wouldn’t have actually lost what you deleted; it’s available under the ‘Versions’ triangle in the title bar. Although next time you opened the document it would open with no content, quite rightly, as that’s the last state it was in when you quit.

best wishes,

Paul Bradforth

Buy my eBooks at:
http://www.paulbradforth.com/books/


offtopic mailing list
email@hidden
Update your subscriptions at:
http://freewaytalk.net/person/options