v3beta5 bugs

Legacy Intaglio
1

I’ve been trying the prelease version v3beta5 of Intaglio.

There is a problem with libraries: If I have enable arrows and draw a few lines with arrows, then drag an item from the library onto the drawing the result is that all the lines in the library object have arrows attached to them. This should not happen IMO. The objects in the library are ‘finished’. If I want to embelish them with arrows I need to select the object, then apply arrows.

Sometime ago we discussed the behaviour of objects when clicked. I think I managed to persuade you that, to be consistent with normal Mac behaviour and to give the immediate feedback the HIG stipulate, the resize handles should appear on the mouse-down of a single-click (to give immediate feedback), whereas in fact they still don’t appear until mouse-up.

Some of the version 3 examples don’t look quite right (at least on my 10.3.9 G3). The text with coloured background has a white background same as all the other text, also the emboss effects seem missing. Many thanks for supporting 10.3.9 by the way. It doesn’t matter to me if some of the effects are missing but a note in the examples saying which don’t work would be reassuring.

All the best

Charles

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2

You’re right about the arrows coming from the library. That’s a bug and I’ll get it fixed for the next beta.

The appearance of the selection handles isn’t ideal, but as you’ve noticed it hasn’t changed in this version. The main issue is that handles should appear during an area selection but they currently wait until the end. Another issue is that if you click on an unselected object and immediately start dragging the handles would have to appear then disappear when the drag starts. Intaglio isn’t currently architected to support this.

10.3.9 doesn’t support CoreImage so the “advanced” effects won’t work. The version 3 sample drawing wasn’t really intended for mass consumption but you’re right, there should be a note.

All the description text in this sample has a light gray background so it stands out from the darker gray image background. It may appear white compared to the surrounding colors or there may be a bug in this area related to 10.3.9. I’ll have to boot into Panther and check it out.

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3

On 31 May 2008, 3:17 pm, Nick wrote:

You’re right about the arrows coming from the library. That’s a bug and I’ll get it fixed for the next beta.

Great

Another issue is that if you click on an unselected object and immediately start dragging the handles would have to appear then disappear when the drag starts. Intaglio isn’t currently architected to support this.

Is it possible within the existing architecture to do the following? The mouse-down selects the object and displays handles; when the drag starts the original object stays put with the handles displayed and a duplicate without handles follows the mouse. On mouse-up the original disappears and the dropped copy is selected with handles displayed.

This seems very close to the existing behaviour, all that’s missing is the temporary ‘ghost’ of the object that stays in its original position with handles displayed and vanishes on mouse-up.

All the best

Charles

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4

Is it possible within the existing architecture to do the following?

I forgot to mention that this is what AppleWorks does, and it feels right to me.

C.

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5

The ghost object idea is used within Intaglio is you’re performing a “global” drag (i.e., one that can leave the current window). FWIW, the ideas about drag feedback have changed since the old QuickDraw days when AppleWorks was created. The idea is to use today’s higher powered computers to produce more realistic feedback. For example, now you’re dragging the actual object, rather than just a shadow or outline.

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6

On 3 Jun 2008, 5:31 pm, Nick wrote:

FWIW, the ideas about drag feedback have changed since the old QuickDraw days when AppleWorks was created.

In addition to my own experience, I’ve watched two people new to Intaglio (but not new to CAD) trying its demo. In both cases, when they wanted to move an object they mouse-downed on it, paused wondering why nothing happened, the auto-duplicate kicked in while they were wondering, so they started dragging and ended up with a duplicate of the object.

Intaglio’s behaviour is inconsistent the past and current HIG:

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGUserInput/chapter_12_section_2.html

which on the topic of mouse clicking says “The effect of a click should be immediate and obvious. If the function of the click is to cause an action (such as clicking a button), the selection is made when the button is pressed…”

Anyway, I’ve made my point (and no-one is jumping in to agree with me) so I’ll stop going on about it now.

All the best

Charles

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7

Charles (cdhw) I am hereby supporting your point, and stating, as a long time Intaglio user.

Also, I am disappointed that version 3.0 has taken so long to come along, without any major improvements to either functionality or the user interface.

As others have also pointed out, when working with a 15" display of a laptop, the cluttering caused by all the small windows is very annoying and decreases productivity.
Even on large displays, it is very questionable that this is the best user interface. In my view, NisusWriter provides a good example of a “clean” interface, in which all functionality is essentially available from a “drawer”.
It might be that Nick does not want to show the “secret weapon” of a new user interface in the beta releases of version 3, and that something surprising will show up in the final release, however I am not holding my breadth…

I am thankful that Intaglio exists, as it provided a solution to my problem of dealing with old ClarisDraw files, and to a large extent Intaglio has re-created the “power with ease of use” that ClarisDraw was known for.

I am disappointed to read a comment from Nick in another thread (http://www.freewaytalk.net/thread/view/33851), that Intaglio is not going to incorporate more basic features of 2D CAD programs. In this field, and to the best of my knowledge, ClarisCAD is a reference in terms of “power with ease of use” that has not been recreated by any affordable application for OS X 10.5.

That in the early 1990’s ClarisDraw and ClarisCAD had to be 2 different and separate programs is understandable, given the capabilities of the hardware and OS of the time.

In my view, in 2008, that sort of separation is artificial, and I am still searching for such an OS X application. I had been hoping that it would be Intaglio, but after reading Nick’s comments, I guess I should start looking for it elsewhere …

Sorry for the (too) long post.
CA

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8

Charles, you can actually turn off this behaviour with the automatic
copying.

However I too am with both you Charles and CA on all these issues.

I too was really hoping for some cool changes and updates to Intaglio
ever since
Freeway took control, but I’ve slowly been getting more and more
disillusioned with the progress of
Intaglio. Don’t get me wrong, I love this software, but the beta
upgrade has been really disappointing
especially after seeing how fantastic OmniGraffle has now become,
particularly with the new text
tools. Originally I chose Intaglio over OmniGraffle because I thought
Intaglio was easier to use, but now after
playing with OmniGraffle’s new interface, I’ve come to conclusion that
it is now streets ahead of Intaglio, and
Omni does everything now that i want, that Intaglio does not have.

I too was a tad miffed with the statement about not having a simple
auto spellchecker in Intaglio, and that I would
have to use some function in the pull down menu, that although works,
is a real fuss to use- and that’s also in
the ‘new’ beta!

As for CAD, I am a trained CAD designer with a design degree under my
belt, and although I don’t find Intaglio as awkward
to use as Autocad, the dimensioning tools in Intaglio still fox the
daylights out of me, and I’ve never been able
to increase the size of the dimensioning text in Intaglio either. I’m
sure that there is an explanation somewhere, but the online
manual never really covers that- ie it doesn’t give enough examples.

I too am sorry I’ve had to say this, but I too have been itching to
get this off my chest for a while. My respect goes
to both Charles and CA for having the nerve to be the first to mention
their concerns.

However, I can’t afford to upgrade to OmniGraffle yet, so I’ll have to
keep using Intaglio for the mean time,
so Nick, I’m also really looking forward to this ‘secret weapon’ too,
whatever that is. :¬)

On 3 Jun 2008, at 23:20, cdhw wrote:

On 3 Jun 2008, 5:31 pm, Nick wrote:

FWIW, the ideas about drag feedback have changed since the old
QuickDraw days when AppleWorks was created.

In addition to my own experience, I’ve watched two people new to
Intaglio (but not new to CAD) trying its demo. In both cases, when
they wanted to move an object they mouse-downed on it, paused
wondering why nothing happened, the auto-duplicate kicked in while
they were wondering, so they started dragging and ended up with a
duplicate of the object.

Intaglio’s behaviour is inconsistent the past and current HIG:

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGUserInput/chapter_12_section_2.html

which on the topic of mouse clicking says “The effect of a click
should be immediate and obvious. If the function of the click is to
cause an action (such as clicking a button), the selection is made
when the button is pressed…”

Anyway, I’ve made my point (and no-one is jumping in to agree with
me) so I’ll stop going on about it now.

All the best

Charles

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9

Tom,

Try this: (I hope I fully understood what you described below.
If the behavior you describe applies just to the beta I apologize
as I am at v.2 and have not tried the beta.)

on 6/4/08 3:18 PM, Tom Fenn at email@hidden wrote:

I’ve never been able
to increase the size of the dimensioning text in Intaglio either.

Select Dimensions from the Layout menu, and then select the “Show Fonts”
button from within the drop down window. Now change the font size, and it
will stick for that document, but only as long as it is open. Closing the
document reverts the settings back to default. My personal belief is that
the preferences should follow the document so you would not have to remember
what they were each and every time you open it. I don’t think you should
have to globally change every future document just to keep the settings for
one.

I wish it were easier, as in selecting a dimensioned line and just changing
the font attributes, but this workaround does the job - albeit a bit
clunkier.

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10

Yes like all the other Intaglio workarounds too. :frowning:

Thanks for the advice btw. I had already tried that anyway :¬)

OmniGraffle v5 is really great though, and has no workarounds.

On 4 Jun 2008, at 23:02, RB wrote:

this workaround does the job

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11

I agree with you Charles!
I like the old-fashioned way of moving and copying objects. In most other drawing programs, Shift-drag constrains movement to the horizontal, vertical or 45 degrees. Shift-Option-drag copies the object, aligned to the original.

Thanks ttrw for the copying tip. I’d not discovered that one (go to Preferences and in the part which says ‘Delay Before Global Drag’, move the slider to ‘Never’).

Even after the Global Drag tip, moving and copying is still clunky. If the object you want to move is selected, when you press Shift, nothing happens. You have to click again to deselect and the deselected object can then be moved. Is it me? Am I crazy? Intaglio behaves in the opposite way to what you expect it to.

I agree about ghosting. When drawing accurate shapes, it’s useful to be able to compare the original curve with the revised shape.

“…the ideas about drag feedback have changed since the old QuickDraw days when AppleWorks was created.”

That doesn’t necessarily mean that the new ideas are better!
ClarisWorks 2, released in 1993, has a word processor, draw, paint, spreadsheet, database and communications modules and the whole program is only 608k. It works perfectly in Classic. If only Apple could have added QuickDraw GX support in 1995…

I can use the Gradient tool and colour swatches can be added to the Library, but it would be better if Intaglio had a Gradient palette like the one in ClarisWorks and LightningDraw. Both these programs have a useful set of pre-made gradients which can be easily modified. To keep it out of the way, the gradients palette could be placed in the Favorites bar at the top of the Intaglio window.

Intaglio 3’s docked palettes are a real improvement. When they’re collapsed, the desktop is less cluttered than before.

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12

That’s strange because I don’t find them any different than before.

I’ll try again.

On 5 Jun 2008, at 01:19, IanB wrote:

Intaglio 3’s docked palettes are a real improvement. When they’re
collapsed, the desktop is less cluttered than before

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13

In case you haven’t discovered this:
With the palettes displayed, click on a title and drag it onto another title. When a blue line appears, release the mouse. The palette is repositioned.

Concerning LonePalm’s dimensions problem:
Change the font and size and save.
In the Finder, select the file and ‘Get Info’ (Command-I).
In the Get Info box, check the Stationery Pad box. This creates a template.
Open Intaglio and drag the template onto the Intaglio icon. When you next draw a line with the Dimension tool, it will have the new font and size.

Odd behaviour dept:
If Intaglio isn’t open, when you double-click the template, an error (10660) appears. The workaround is to open Intaglio first. Double-clicking now works.

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14

What do you mean by a title?

I tried dragging palettes to other palettes, and nothing happened.
Should it really
be that difficult?

Check out Powercadd 7 and see how PC7 uses docking palettes. Intaglio
should be as easy as this imo.
On 5 Jun 2008, at 11:56, IanB wrote:

n case you haven’t discovered this:
With the palettes displayed, click on a title and drag it onto
another title. When a blue line appears, release the mouse. The
palette is repositioned.

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15

That’s interesting! I used to do this with certain apps in OS8.6
I didn’t know that this still could be done in OS X :slight_smile:

Thanks!

On 5 Jun 2008, at 11:56, IanB wrote:

In the Finder, select the file and ‘Get Info’ (Command-I).
In the Get Info box, check the Stationery Pad box. This creates a
template.

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16

That’s very good, but shouldn’t a new page open automatically from a
pre-created template?
Logic Audio started with a template that had been saved as a
stationery pad. If the template
was called ‘Autoload’ then every time Logic was opened, it would
automatically open from that
template. But isn’t all this a bit too Apple OS9? Why can’t we have
templates that automatically
open without all this palaver?
On 5 Jun 2008, at 11:56, IanB wrote:

Open Intaglio and drag the template onto the Intaglio icon. When you
next draw a line with the Dimension tool, it will have the new font
and size.

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17

Of dear- here we go again lol!
On 5 Jun 2008, at 11:56, IanB wrote:

The workaround is to open Intaglio first

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18

The way drag works is intuitive to the point that someone who has never seen or used Intaglio (or any vector app) can drag an object from one point to another with no problem (I just tested this by showing someone the screen and telling them to drag the object).

Also, I wouldn’t discount the effort required to code an app that still works well with 10.3.9 through 10.5 when other vendors are going 10.5 only.

Re: drawers
They have their own set of issues and I’ve seen devs write drawers out of their apps as a result. For some apps, they may do the trick, but even Apple’s Preview no longer uses a drawer (opting for a similar functioning sidebar).

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19

In most other drawing programs,

I’ve just tried this in a few apps (not most, just some of the ones created since OS X) and they all are slightly different. The one thing that IS common is that if an object is selected and you click on it while holding down the Shift Key, the object becomes deselected. Also, they all offer the option that, if you decide AFTER you start dragging that you want it to be constrained, then you can press Shift at any point for the constrain to take place.

Intaglio in this instance appears to be in-line with what users would expect after using apps like Apple’s iWork.

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20

“… the object becomes deselected”

You’re right. I’d forgotten about the other app’s quirks. I just tried the Shift-Option-drag technique in AI, E3.3, Canvas and LightningDraw and with Global Drag set to ‘Never’, Intaglio is the smoothest of them all.

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